V-Power - Hmmmm.....

[turbology]

I sum it up, you are right. U know the most practical answers to everything.:top:

This is not an answer

I will still like to know how ECU adapt to different quality of fuel

 

[Schwepps]

i've tried every fuel in Msia and BHP is the one which i felt the most significant difference (about 20%) from other fuel...even more significant than v-power...but the other way round! one of the shittiest fuel ever...it is on par with thailand's cheap 'gasohol' (petrol + ethanol)

You mean Boustead Holdings Petroleum?

It's important to know what's behind the brand. BHP (Boustead), Caltex (Chevron), Mobil (Exxon Mobile), Projet (Conoco) etc, are all basically marketing companies here. Are they involved in production and refining here? No. So where do they get their stock from?

Take Caltex: they have less than 300 employees here, mostly involved in managing their dealerships, Starshops and lubricant distribution. They started the additive game in the early 90s with Techron. They used to get their fuel from Singapore through ports like Pasir Gudang and Kuantan, but now I wonder whether they get it from the new KVDT built by Petronas and Shell. Effectively they might all be selling Petronas petrol refined in Melaka from our very own Tapis Sweet crude now. Economics.

Esso and Mobil...do they still get their stock from Esso's nearly 50 year-old refinery in PD, or KVDT too?

Read between the lines of sifu wc's posts

 

[E46Fanatic]

Gee great thread. So in summary, all fuels have the same base here from our normal pump, just additives which are added by the different companies. V-Power is the odd ball as it comes from Singapore.

In the past there were many tankers who made detours in remote areas to get fuel out and replaced with other bits for easy margins/bucks. Is this still true? Also do you guys know if dealers themselves have been caught in mixing at their petrol stations? I.e. V Power is not fully v power but instead a mix of normal gas and v power?

 

[Schwepps]

Well we all know what our enforcement and maintenance standards are, and the blue murder that people can get away with. There was the tanker driver mixing in the jungle issue, there was also the groundwater seeping into rusty storage tanks issue.

That's why I choose Shell - I think the best chance of decent controls. And I choose newer stations - avoiding stations in low lying/flood prone areas.

 

[MSport]

Gee! It's interesting how the thread is going. Is V-Power more expensive due to "import" from Singapore?

 

[Schwepps]

MSport my bro, the pricing of petrol is not affected by whether it's imported or locally refined. Think about how petrol price is controlled. In 1983, the Govt introduced the Automatic Pricing Mechanism. Components of the APM are fixed: product cost (regardless what your actual costs are), overheads, oil co margin, dealer margin. The floating element is the subsidy, or vice versa, duty. The grades are fixed at 92 and 97 Ron. The govt plans to introduce 95 Ron next year, and reduce the subsidy for 97 through the APM.

Meaning, it's all very tightly controlled. There is no leeway for oil companies to set pump prices as they wish. Therefore, for Shell to get an approved pump price for V-Power, they must show why the product cost is different, and we're not talking about additives here. You can't tell the Govt you're taking base UL97 and putting in a super-duper additive, so can you please sell it 45 sen dearer? Pricing of petrol is not flexible like that.

So for product cost in the APM for V-Power to be different, it must be a different hydrocarbon formulation from UL97. It's a different fuel from Shell Super. :wink:

 

[turbology]

So for product cost in the APM for V-Power to be different, it must be a different hydrocarbon formulation from UL97. It's a different fuel from Shell Super. :wink:

You said the product cost for V-power is different, so Shell can sell V-power at higher price ? All I said this is political BS, and someone are getting extra cash in their pocket.
Is V-power in Thailand, or Singapore more expensive ?

Hydrocarbon-Gasoline can't be just sooo "different". No matter how it is, is still gasoline, and must fall within a certain spec. All gasoline are a form of hydrocarbon. Extra like MTBE, Benzane, Toluene, and etc all must follow regulation.

If Shell can sell it at 0.45 higher price, why can't other company like Pentronas, or BP do it ?

Do you get more performance from V-power ? or just from "I feel it" ?
One of the most important aspect when it comes to gasoline performance is Octang Rating. I am not paying extra for gasoline that is the roughly the same.
You can try to feel good by using V-power but as a better consumer, I am not.
It might be a slight different from Shell Super. But is still gasoline, and is still RON97.

All I am trying to do is to inform every driver out there.
Is all up to you of what gasoline you want to choose, afterall is paying from you wallet, not mine

Cheers

 

[turbology]

So, I decided to contact Shell regarding the MON. Asking them if the MON in V-power and Shell Super are different. Differences in MON between the 2 gasoline can have a huge impact on performance even the RON is the same. (Just like WC9922 said, which I agree). The answer from Shell is :

Yes, both are roughly the same. MON is 86-87 for both (Super & V-power)

Cheers

 

[Traveler]

Well for me, my "practical" approach to deciding between RON92/RON97/V-Power is simple:

1. In my area, there's only Shell and Petronas. Shell is easier to get to, and I get 2% rebate using my Citibank Shell credit card.

2. No RON92 available, so forget that (although I would be interested to try it out at some point, out of curiousity with regards to cost/KM)

3. Only decision left is between Shell Super (RON97) and V-Power (also RON97).

4. V-Power is more expensive, currently 22.5% more expensive (RM2.45 vs RM2.00).

5. So does V-Power give me 22.5% better fuel efficiency than Super? I seriously doubt there can be a 22.5% difference between two sets of RON97 fuel even with superior additives (I never noticed anything close to 20% difference when using AKI87 vs AKI94 fuel in the US). So on cost per KM basis, Super wins.

6. Next question, will V-Power give me additional performance over Super? Based on what people are saying... it appears likely to have some performance improvement. Although in my old E36, I never noticed any difference when I tried V-Power, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt. So on performance basis, V-Power wins.

7. No major surprises here so far. Thing is, am I satisfied with my E90's performance under Super or do I want additional performance? Frankly, I'm quite happy as it is since under normal daily driving conditions, I have more than enough power to take me to work and back at speeds I am comfortable with.

8. My solution: Use Super 99% of the time, and maybe V-Power 1% of the time (especially on Club drives, so I can "feel" good and pretend I notice the extra "power", when in reality the "power" is from pressing the accelerator harder and being in DS mode to keep up with all the other UDMs).

 

[B33mEr]

It's a matter of choice really ... and having said that when using V-Power i do feel my M54B30 perform and respond better with V-Power even my passenger too feel the difference... i can see why Shell is charging a premium over V-Power ... FYI i'm using BHP cos it gives a better value tho i switch to V-Power once in a while when i can afford to hehehe

 

[Schwepps]

It was late last night when I posted. Let me be a bit more precise now.

The component costs of the APM are fixed. The floating element is the product cost, which is based on a standard formula for each grade and is a function of global benchmark oil price. The balancing figure in this equation is the subsidy or duty. When the pump price was raised in August, the subidy dropped. Then when oil prices dropped, the subsidy turned negative and the govt was collecting duty. Hence the pump price reductions in the past few months. The govt has been practising a managed float all this while.
See http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/12622-malaysians-are-now-paying-petrol-tax-

The margins are fixed for oil companies at 19 sen/lit and for dealers at 12 sen/lit, regardless whether it's Regular, Super or V-Power. Neither the oil companies nor the dealers make a single sen more or less from the price hikes, drops, or selling higher grade petrol.
See http://nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Friday/National/2407843/Article/pppull_index_html

Only Shell can offer V-Power because only Shell has the process technology in its Bukom refinery to produce this blend. The others don't have access to it because they're buying base fuel from Petronas, especially in the Klang Valley. Even the other big player here, Exxon Mobil, has exited the refining sector, so even Esso is pumping at KVDT. The volumes for V-Power are too small for Petronas to invest in upgrading the refinery technology here. Besides which most countries are moving away from higher grades, and indeed we should be moving towards alternative fuels instead. Even for Shell, it's only a brand differentiation play, as V-Power is a very small proportion of their sales.

V-Power vs Super: As a user, I find that there is an FC and torque inprovement, but they're not big enough improvements to justify the present cost differential of 45 sen. But I still use it because of emotional factors.

 

[B33mEr]

i luv this thread lol ... should be thread of the year :top:

 

[turbology]

2. No RON92 available, so forget that (although I would be interested to try it out at some point, out of curiousity with regards to cost/KM)

No RON92 for your UDM. It run like shit
With only 10sen different, is better on RON97 side

All bimmers are designed to run RON95 or above.
Well, to be more techincal correct, all posted/published numbers ( HP, Torque, 0-100) are based on minimum RON95. Not incluidng M cars

Cheers

 

[MSport]

Decided to return to the manual....... allow me to quote from the E90 owner's handbook (pg 193):

"Since the engine has a knock control function, it can run on different grades of fuel.

Super Plus/premium plus fuel octane number 98 RON, Fill up with fuel of this grade so that the nominal perfomance values are achieved.

You can also run the engine on: Premium-grade unleaded fuel, octane number 95 RON.

The minimum permissible grade is Regular-grade unleaded fuel, octane number 91 RON"

Looks like RON92 is also a go. But it may not bring out the engine's performance like a higher octane fuel.

Cheers!

 

[Schwepps]

i luv this thread lol ... should be thread of the year :top:

Yes, I learnt a lot from it too. Sifu wc's comments really crystalized the bits and pieces that I knew about the petroleum business model.

We make our own decisions about what petrol to buy, but at least we can do it now with better understanding of what's what.

Cheers all! :driver:

 

[MSport]

Well said bro Schwepps.

Happy re-fueling!!

 

[Schwepps]

Breaking news:
Petrol price dropping another 10 sen at midnight tonight. Apparently the APM shows a negative subsidy at RM2.00 per lit. Let's hope V-Power drops in tandem.

 

[B33mEr]

Sweet!!!!

 

[racheltoh]

so what is the conclusion?
Shell V Power or Shell Super

 

[XXX]

....depending on your pocket.