Hi All UDM drivers,I am a newbie from KL, just got my E34 95 520i this week, in time to show off during CNY... hehe.. Actually, this is my second E34, the first being a 92 non Vanos unit. Scrapped that unit couple of years ago, but cant forget the feel. Once a BM driver, always a BM driver, huh??Anyway, I read somewhere that I shld use Mobil 1 15W-50 for my E34, as the weather here is hot. My question, does using lower viscosity lubes (like 5W-40) work in Msia, or its better to keep at synthetic 15W-50 oils?? Or do i just use dino oil with the same rating?? What would u guys recommend??Also, its said that we shld not use any addictives (even X1R) as current lubes works the best. Any feedback on this??Thats all for now, wish to meet u all soon, and thnx for having me in this great club with ppl of the same mindset.
Mobil 1 for my E34
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kevster30
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Mobil 1 causes massive sludge problems in BMW engines as the operate at higher temperatures than most engines. Notice how your temp is always at the halfway mark? What other car operates at this heat range?
In our temperate climate, 10W40 is the ideal weight to use. FYI, most BMWs in Europe leave the assembly lines with TOTAL or FUCHS as their blood of choice.
Hope this helps.
In our temperate climate, 10W40 is the ideal weight to use. FYI, most BMWs in Europe leave the assembly lines with TOTAL or FUCHS as their blood of choice.
Hope this helps.
The two fully syn that am happy with is Q8 5W-40 & Fuch's 10W-40. Engine feels smooth, quieter & revs up smoothly, without any drag noticeable.
Have tried among others (all fully syn): Mobil 1 (gold), Shell Helix Ultra, Castrol RS (though technically, this is not a fully syn as it's a Group III hydrocracked oil).
Though the owner's manual states a 50 point oil for air temp of 30C (& above), I think the new generation engine oils (API SL & above) of 40 points are good enough for daily driving. The shear strength of new generation 40 point is as good (if not better) than the dino. 50 point oil. Also, protection is most needed during cold start & high revs and that's where the shear strength and viscosity kinematics (at 100C) comes into play.
For more info on engine oil, click here for Bob Is The Oil Guy. The Forum is also full of info.
Have tried among others (all fully syn): Mobil 1 (gold), Shell Helix Ultra, Castrol RS (though technically, this is not a fully syn as it's a Group III hydrocracked oil).
Though the owner's manual states a 50 point oil for air temp of 30C (& above), I think the new generation engine oils (API SL & above) of 40 points are good enough for daily driving. The shear strength of new generation 40 point is as good (if not better) than the dino. 50 point oil. Also, protection is most needed during cold start & high revs and that's where the shear strength and viscosity kinematics (at 100C) comes into play.
For more info on engine oil, click here for Bob Is The Oil Guy. The Forum is also full of info.
KC, while we're on the subject of oils, wud u mind sharing mit us ur opinion on y we need multi-grade oil for such a hot engines as our UDMs in such a hot climate country like M'sia.
I mean, our local temp. hardly comes anywher as low as 20 deg.C. so wher got "cold" [as in icy] start which we really got the need the 'W' rating as formulated in multi-grade oils.
Wouldn't we be better off mit straight SAE 50 to take up the heated high revs of our UDM driving style? :unsure:
2cents: Yeah.. "cold" start here is not that cold but as most of the oil has gravitate to the sump, the faster the oil flows through during the start phase, the better. This is where the balance between "cold" start protection vs. high rev protection comes into play. Read below & see if it makes sense.
Errr.... I'm no expert on oils & am sure someone here may have the proper technical background to answer this professionally. Will however try but bear in mind that I'm not 100% right on this.
Here goes.... from a company's P&L prespective, a multi grade oil was designed primarily for the "mass" market (ie. USA). As the US (or "mass" market) has such wide range of climate (from artic to tropical), from a profit & loss point of view, it makes cents to make ONE or TWO product that would suit all these conditions (less $$$ wasted in R&D, production & stock keeping).
From a (un qualified) technical point of view, a straight 50 point oil would take longer time to reach it's "operating" temp & during this (warm up) period, the wear on the engine would be more significant than a multi grade oil (which has better "cold" viscosity). If I'm not mistaken, the viscosity of a straight 50 point oil is worse (ie. thicker) than a multigrade, hence the engine would be struggling to overcome this 'treacle'.
A document I saw recently has interesting data. For 0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40, 15W40, 20W-40 & 25W-40, the low shear rate kinematics (at 100C) was the same, however, the high shear rate (at 150C) was better / higher for 15W-40, 20W40 & 25W-40. The conclusion I draw from this was, if you want higher temp protection, for the same (upper) grade (ie. XW-40), choose one that has a higher winter grade (ie. the XW is 15W or 20W or 25W) (I noticed 20W & 25W are very difficult to find nowadays).
Interesting note is that the high end shear kinematics (at 150C) for 15W 20W 25W - 40 is the same as a single 50 point grade oil. Maybe that's why a multigrade can function as well as a single grade oil (at high temp).
Another point to note is that the lastest (2004) API-SM is almost the same requirements as the ILSAC GF-4, which is signed by Japanese Motor Manufacturers, GM, Ford & DaimlerChrysler. Basically API-SM / GF-4 oils will have to meet certain wear & tear, corrosion, volatility, enviormentally friendly requirements, amongs them lower emission. Thus, the new grade of oil would probably be no higher than XW-30 as listed in the document (with XW limited to 0w, 5W & 10W). Though I suspect a XW-40 multigrade may be available (if it meets the standards). Whats the point I'm making? Future multigrade oils will probably have lower 'high' end (40 or even 30 point), if they want to meet API-SM / GF-4 or higher requirements. Hence, start looking at the "winter" grade (ie XW) to help you decide which grade suits you best.
So, a 0W to 10W grades will probably give better "cold" start protection but a 15W to 25W grades will give better high rev protection (for a XW-40 multigrade oil "apple to apple" comparison).
Ultimately, the choice is yours & yours alone. The decision is yours to make.
Disclaimer: The opinion above is not from a qualified oil or chemistry engineer, thus any conclusion or judgement was based on 'layman logical' understanding. The author bears no responsibilities (morally or physically) to your car and engine should you agree to his conclusion (ie. at your own risk).
ALBundy
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I think one thing to consider when choosing your oil is to take into consideration of the ambient temperature. I think 10-40 or 15-40 is more than sufficient for our climate. 0-50 or 5-50 is needed only for cooler climate, although I see no harm using it here, other than burning a small hole in your pocket for something that your engine don't really need.
My 2 cents
My 2 cents
Wat precisely's u bein precise abt, Bundy? dat it don't make any diff against straight 50 in KL-PJ temp? So if dat's ur case der nex questn. wud b, which type of oil costs less - multi r monogrades? :blink:Originally posted by ALBundy@Feb 4 2005, 09:56 AM
2 cents, that's the precisely what I am trying to say in my previous post!
ALBundy
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Unker 2 cents, read my previous postings la. Anyway, if you have a BMW handbook (i can lend you one), just read at the recommended "oils" to use.
For our climate, 20W-50 is also fine. However for cars with Vanos, its recommended to use 15W-40 at least. Monograde, SuperGrade, MultiGrade and what else you have doesn't make any difference to me (that's solely my own opinion), unless you drive a highly souped up car. And that also, in the 60s, 70s and 80s, what kinda engine oils were used in those turbo charged cars:lol: ?? Mineral oil! Got the drift? :lol:
For our climate, 20W-50 is also fine. However for cars with Vanos, its recommended to use 15W-40 at least. Monograde, SuperGrade, MultiGrade and what else you have doesn't make any difference to me (that's solely my own opinion), unless you drive a highly souped up car. And that also, in the 60s, 70s and 80s, what kinda engine oils were used in those turbo charged cars:lol: ?? Mineral oil! Got the drift? :lol:
Yes Bundy, I already kno abt what the 'Recommended' oils r -but dat's not my questn. laa. If I not mistaken ur previous postings on mineral oils also suffered the effects of the "delete button" accident of the previous forum. But I must say dis accident has cause forum-ers like me a loss becos ur posting certainly made for very interesting reading.
But coming back to the matter at hand, my discussions with KCTam's abt how critical/ applicable are winter ratings of multigrades in the kind of low temperature conditions which we experience in KL-PJ area & the cost-benefits of these oils vs a monograde 50 type.
But aside from dat, thanx for bringing up another point abt mineral oils - don't dey also come in multigrades?
Pardon me going on abt multigrades but I suspect dat in KL-PJ type motoring, we don't really need these winter ratings but hey, I really dunno. I's just wondering if KC mite care to dispel my notions with better qualified info. :unsure:
ALBundy
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Yup, minerals do come in MultiGrade I believe, lowest rating is 10W-30 (more suitable for Perodua tho'), next is 15W-40 which I have been using for more than 3 years.
As I said, there is no harm using 0W-60 or 5W-50 in our climate, neither does 15W-40 nor 20W-50. Those days mana ada all these 0W or 5W ratings but cars still move and can still see many E21s and E30s around hehehe. Well, to me you don't need a parang to slaughter a chicken
And then we have people who said when I put Oil XX, the car is lighter, smoother and etc. Well, its more of a placebo effect. DO a blind test and see if anyone can determine whether its a mineral or synthetic oil in their engine and whether its monograde/multigrade/supergrade and etc. Btw, if I give a plain pill and claimed it to be a viagra to 100 folks, more than 20% will claimed they have better erection and that's a placebo effect :lol: :lol:
As I said, there is no harm using 0W-60 or 5W-50 in our climate, neither does 15W-40 nor 20W-50. Those days mana ada all these 0W or 5W ratings but cars still move and can still see many E21s and E30s around hehehe. Well, to me you don't need a parang to slaughter a chicken
And then we have people who said when I put Oil XX, the car is lighter, smoother and etc. Well, its more of a placebo effect. DO a blind test and see if anyone can determine whether its a mineral or synthetic oil in their engine and whether its monograde/multigrade/supergrade and etc. Btw, if I give a plain pill and claimed it to be a viagra to 100 folks, more than 20% will claimed they have better erection and that's a placebo effect :lol: :lol:
2cents: Good question & to be honest, am not too certain how to answer you (since am not a qualified person on this subject).Originally posted by 2cents@Feb 4 2005, 01:09 AM
Thanks KC for the painstaking efforts in expounding your theories & ur valued contribution, however after all that's bin said, one nagging thot remains abt the flow rates of motor oils in Msian market at local temperature lows.
I mean tho' the fact is dat multigrades flow better than monogrades under winter conditions but how much do u reckon multigrades wud flow faster than monograde 50 oils under the coldest KL-PJ temperature conditions?
Or to put the questn. another way, if a 0W oil flows faster than a 25W in winter, wud they all in flowing together at say 22 degrees C, flow any faster than a SAE50 oil?
I'm just trying to sort out the sensibilities of this issue. For all the superflowabilities of these winter rated multigrades, do they make any diff. in ambient temps that never reach anywher close to winter esp. for those of us who liv in KL-PJ & Klang? :unsure:
Once again, we beseech u shar ur personal thots on these matters O-Guru-of-Lubrication Master KCTam, danke!
I did however, do a net search & found this interesting article written by qualified people from Shell (click here).
Permit me to quote paragraph 5 " ... We have already mentioned the polymer additive which goes to make multigrade oils. This type of additive is called a Viscosity Index Improver (VII). The term VII derives from the scale used to measure the rate at which an oil thins out when it is heated - in other words, its Viscosity Index (VI). A monograde oil would typically have a VI of 100, whilst that of a mineral based multigrade would be 150. Synthetic oils are far superior in this respect, with the typical VI of a top synthetic motor oil such as Shell Helix Ultra 5W - 40, being 187. This property is of great value in maintaining the viscosity of the oil, and therefore the protection of the engine, throughout its oil change intervals."
[quote from Bob is the Oil Guy Glossary] VI is defined as arbitrary scale used to show the magnitude of viscosity changes with change in temperature. Oils with high VI number such as VI=200, will still thicken with decreasing temperature but not as rapidly, and also will thin out with increasing temperature, but again not as much as low VI oil.
The deduction from this is that multigrade would retains its viscoscity during the oil change interval.
Thus a monograde would be, say 50 point, initially but after usage, would change in viscosity. By how much, by thinning or thickening, when... are the questions I cant answer. Maybe someone else here can also enlighten us.
2cents... why not give the monograde a try. If its not to your satisfaction, then dump it & go back to multigrade.
On a personal note, I'd rather stick with modern multigrade as technology improves over the years.
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To all: A point I did not stress during my previous post was that the data quoted was neither stated mineral nor synthetic. As to which is "better", that is the eternal question that will continue to be debated till the cows come home (no pun intended to our CircusCow...he he).
Also the data quoted is "as is, where is" basis. That's why the emphasis was on XW-40. I would not dare to make an unqualified assumption for other multigrade that are also available (eg. XW-50).
Also bear in mind that there was no mention on additives and cleaning agents found in all engine oils (both mineral & synthetic). This "holy grail" differs from product to product & that is also another reason as to why each oil "feels" different, even if the same multigrade.
Thus, as in life, there are multiple factors that makes something the way it is. We cant just look at one single factor & not work the others into the equation. The same applies here. We have just looked at the (multi)grades but have not taken additives, mineral or synthetic, cost etc into the full equation.
Ultimately, we all want the best for our cars & try to make the best "educated" judgement in choosing engine oils. If it makes you happy, then go for it. You are the person paying for it. So what if it differs from my opinion or someone else's. It's YOUR choice & God gave this gift of free will to you.
Hi All,
Thnx for the contributions, very interesting read.
I suppose that 10W-40 or 15W-50 is ok for our weather. We dont need the winter cold startup, but we do need for the oils to be able to "stretch" (wrong terminology i suppose ) when we are hight reving the engine.
As very clearly defined in KCTam's latest article, all factors like additives, etc, that the oil companies put in their oil are not defined as these are trade secrets. For all i know, there may not be any additives at all but some users wil swear that some XXX oil is faster, cooler and smoother.
I suppose its all a matter of choice, budget and "feel" or yr car when u use it. Experiment till u get one u like, then stick with it. Every car is as unique as its driver, there is no one solution for every one/car. I learn that long time ago.
Back to my question: Shld we add any additives to the oils (like some brands on TV that claims 95% reduction in friction)?? Some mechanics curses them saying oil compaines spend millions improving their own oils, yet some praises them like heaven sent. Is it due to commercial reasons, like racun??
I know of a fren, uses a US MLM brand starts with an AXXXX, that causes sludge in the engine and had to overhaul the engine to remove all the slugde created!!
SO, pls offer yr 2-cents (hehe... no pun intended to u 2cents) on after market additives/treatments on top of using regular engine oils.
Thnx for feedback.
5201 (aka Steven)
Thnx for the contributions, very interesting read.
I suppose that 10W-40 or 15W-50 is ok for our weather. We dont need the winter cold startup, but we do need for the oils to be able to "stretch" (wrong terminology i suppose
) when we are hight reving the engine.As very clearly defined in KCTam's latest article, all factors like additives, etc, that the oil companies put in their oil are not defined as these are trade secrets. For all i know, there may not be any additives at all but some users wil swear that some XXX oil is faster, cooler and smoother.
I suppose its all a matter of choice, budget and "feel" or yr car when u use it. Experiment till u get one u like, then stick with it. Every car is as unique as its driver, there is no one solution for every one/car. I learn that long time ago.
Back to my question: Shld we add any additives to the oils (like some brands on TV that claims 95% reduction in friction)?? Some mechanics curses them saying oil compaines spend millions improving their own oils, yet some praises them like heaven sent. Is it due to commercial reasons, like racun??
I know of a fren, uses a US MLM brand starts with an AXXXX, that causes sludge in the engine and had to overhaul the engine to remove all the slugde created!!
SO, pls offer yr 2-cents (hehe... no pun intended to u 2cents) on after market additives/treatments on top of using regular engine oils.
Thnx for feedback.
5201 (aka Steven)
5201: Ouch... another controversial topic. Again, there are no rights nor wrongs here as each group has their point.
My thoughts are that if it's a mineral or semi synthetic, additives can be considered but if it's fully synthetic (Group IV & higher PAO's), then dont bother.
Have noticed that additives are not cheap (can be up to MYR60 per 250ml bottle). That works out to be MYR960 (!!!) per 4 litres. The most expensive fully synthetic (4 litre pack) is about MYR280+ (I think), so look at the premium that's being paid for additives.
Dollar for dollar above, it makes cents to just buy a 'good' fully synthetic & change every 5000km AND still have spare change in the pocket. (yes... I know it's apples & oranges comparison since you cant use 'pure' additives as engine oil but I still find additives expensive litre for litre).
Well, that's my take from a dollar & cents point of view. As for technical, I'll leave that to the qualified experts here (Bob Is The Oil Guy & other links at the end of the page)
