E36 - A-pillars for tweeters?

[LCP]

Yo gurus, Does mounting the tweeters on A-pillars improve the soundstage and imaging? Has anyone tried to mount this way before? Just curious because if we mount them on the dash, the front passenger is not going to hear much of the right tweeters as the bulge for the instrument panel is blocking the path... Thanks.

 

[BlueMixWhite]

Me no guru, but quite into ICE. It is common ppl mount tweeters on the A-pillars. I think it will bring the staging higher, but might be seperate the mid from the tweeters quite apart.

 

[Vanquish]

Hi LCP,

I've mounted my DLS UR1 tweets on my A-pillars after much experimentation. The stock location sucks - stage height and imaging is almost non existent. However, I mounted them slightly above the dash using the DLS supplied tweeter mounting brackets. Here are the pics of the right and left tweets.

You'll notice that they are slightly angled towards the driver - but not too much. Needless to say, the performance is heaps better than having them in the stock location and the best bit is that they don't even get in your face. I'm able to do this partially due to the fact the silk domed UR1s are very smooth and natural sounding unlike most metal tweets. I've seen a couple of installs with Focal or MB Quart metal tweets being mounted a wee bit higher than mine and cross firing each other to tone down the brightness of the metal domes. Works just as well IMO.

As for the issue of the passenger hearing less of the right tweet and more of the left one (vice versa for the driver, of course) lies in proper install and tuning(digital time-alignment function is god-sent in this case) IMO. Believe me that with just a wee bit of T/A adjustment, getting your favourite singer to sing from the centre of the dash is easy - the fact that the E36 cabin also has very good acoustic characteristic also helps.

Next plan is to integrate them into custom built A pillars (almost similar to stock ones) and also stuff a nice little 3 or 2 inch dome mid range in there too to compliment the existing 6.5 inch mid bass - a nice little 3 way system up front.

Cheers,
VaN.

 

[affan66]

nice must audition one day

 

[Vanquish]

ICE Meister,

Hang mana hilang for so long ? How was your DC trip ? You've got a similar tweeter set up too rite ( if I recall correctly ) ? Take care, man!

Cheers,
VaN.

 

[tombstone]

i have integrated my focal tweeters in the A pillar and rewrapped it to look like stock...

feel the tweeters are at right stage height and no i dun feel it being too separated from the mids...

ps : it looks damn neat too
PPS: sorry...didnt see about the e36 part....its on my GTi...

 

[affan66]

no lah. mine is mounted on the dash, using the supplied Eton tweet mounting. inward facing to center.
Rest, I let the DTA do the work.

Been busy man...

 

[Jipster]

"...............lies in proper install and tuning(digital time-alignment function is god-sent in this case) IMO. Believe me that with just a wee bit of T/A adjustment......."

was just curious about this..... is T/A adjustment something done by the shop with some kind of T/A equipment or is it some black box or something that one needs to have as part of set up?

 

[Vanquish]

Jippy,

DTA or Digital Time Alignment is a feature built into a lot of mid and hi end decks which allows you to synchronize the arrival times of the various sources (speakers) by delaying the nearer sources so that the signal meets at a particular location (your listening point aka sweetspot) coincidently. This theoretically avoids the usual "smearing", "slapback" and combing effects that can make things sound bad while making it easier to get the imaging, balance and focus rite when implemented correctly. Ideally, this works better in an active set up as you have individual control over each drivers and their cross-over points as opposed to systems running on factory supplied passive crossovers. But it still helps even in a passive system to some degree as I found out with my earlier install.

So in practical terms, when you play with the digital time correction, you can almost see the lead vocalist, for example, moving across your dash as you increase or decrease the delay in the right or left speakers. I'm a sucker for dead centre vocal projection so it works nicely for me. It isn't like a simple balance control; you still hear all the audio information on a disc, rather than isolating the signal that goes to a specific side; it simply sounds like the focus point of that audio information shifts as you adjust the time correction. The DTA feature can be found on a slew of decks from Alpine, Clarion, Eclipse, Pioneer and etc as well as individual stand alone processors as well from Alpine, Audio Control, Pioneer, AltoMobile, Zapco and etc.

Thanks,
VaN.

 

[BlueMixWhite]

Time Alignment do have its disadvantage..........the dynamic of the sound might be lost.

 

[sithwarrior]

Wah soo detail ahh you Vanq, Damn I wished I could diffrentiate the acoustic quality between the cheep stuff and the high end stuff. to me all oso the same.

 

[Jipster]

Van..... i lost you at smearing but I know what you mean.... DTA de-mystified....

 

[Vanquish]

Suthe,

It's not rocket science la ... in real world terms for example, if you can differentiate a moan from a groan, you're half-way there, bro! Atleast we know you're not tone-deaf, rite!

Jippy,

Yeah ... pardon the lack of a better word - glossing over is another substitute IMHO. Glad to be of some help ...

Blue,

I agree that over-dependence and utilisation will ruin the overall balance and even rob the dynamics off the system while endowing it with an artificial sense of being. IMO, knowing when to use T/A and to what extent counts just as much in this respect. However, the pros far outweigh the cons given the asymmetrical nature of the cabin ( driver perched away from the theoretical sweet-spot ) and having to deal with other factors such as NVH, road noise, cabin acoustic properties and reflection from objects within the cabin (dash, seats so on) and other factors.

Plus, the quality of the recording itself determines how much of the dynamics is actually captured and reproduced by the system at large. People usually tend to under estimate the issue of recording quality and its contribution in the overall sound quality when it comes to the last mile of the chain - playing a RM5 knock-off CD in a decent set-up is not wrong at all .... but in all honesty, it is no more fun than driving an M3 flat out with cheap retread tires.

Cheers,
VaN.

 

[LCP]

Hi Van, thanks for the superb explanation on the mounting of the tweeters on the A-pillars... will definitely consider that, I do not wish to mount too high too.

Btw, I have an Alpine CDA-9833... it has time alignment, but very manual, the user is supposed to measure the distance to each speaker, translate that into milliseconds, and key those numbers in... So, is there any shop out there that can calibrate the time alignment and freq response using their equipment and test CD, and print out/display the result so I can tune my Alpine to suit it? Maybe KL has such services, definitely not in Penang. How much do they charge btw?

I know for home systems, there are studio-styled equipment (eg. made by Behringer) that has time eq and parametric eq, and capable of doing auto alignment.

 

[BlueMixWhite]

Try acoustic edge opposite marina bay, i think they have some equipment to test speaker placemement.

 

[selvahraje46]

LCP ..u should try to tune ur system at KK LAU AUDIO...they are d sole distributor for alpine products and tuning in malaysia...i'm sure they can help u...i'm using alpine CDA 9853R, 6 1/2" Type S component Speakers SPS 171A and 5"x 7" SPS 57C2 2 way speaker..n it sounds great after tuning....

 

[LCP]

BlueMixWhite... yes, I know the location for Acoustic Edge, have always wanted to drop by them and check them out... what brands do they usually carry anyway?

 

[LCP]

Went to audition some speakers at Golden Auto (Bukit Jambul, Penang) today, they recommended A-pillar mountings...

 

[Vanquish]

LCP,

The TA function on that CDA-9833 is pretty accurate and very simple to use. The method that you described is how most HUs TA works. Some offer Auto TA features too but when it comes to music, I'd trust my own ears.

Perhaps you would like to start experimenting with it on your own for a start. You've got nothing to lose as even if you don't like the end result, you can always reset everything back to flat and start again. Use tracks that you're pretty familiar with to help you identify the tracks' elements/dynamics easily. Otherwise, you can get a reliable installer to tune it to your liking. The Uncle at Golden in Penang is not too bad either or you can go back to Acoustic Edge. Some HU come with both Graphic and Parametric EQ, while others are only with Graphic alone. Your HU comes with Para-EQ only if I remember correctly - but the onboard 5-band parametric EQ is superb if you ask me.

P.S - Selva, AFAIK the Alpine agent/distributor for Malaysia is WKH while KK Lau is just another authorised reseller just like KF Audio, and the likes. Their install/tuning skills and etc IMO are no worse than any other reputable Alpine dealers in Malaysia. As much people tend to rave about them, I've heard a fair amount of horror stories about them and seen it with my own eyes. Oh well ... to each his own, eh ?

Regards,
VaN.

 

[LCP]

Hi Van,

Yep, the CDA-9833 is pretty easy to tune, at least to me... Did the TA as instructed in the user manual, there's significant improvement in the staging. Was just wondering if it could have been better tuned...

Yes, there's a very flexible 5-band P-eq, love it, although I'm into very minor correction only based on what I hear, or rather what I like to hear...

You seemed to know the Penang ICE installers/tuners well... I'm just discovering...