Audio Test CD (Bink's)

[Vanquish]

Originally posted by affan66@Jan 10 2006, 12:26 PM
puzzling but seriously off topic.
How come something that is already lost, signal-wise, reappears after going through valve processing.
Isn't this similar to having an EQ to boost up certain frequencies?

I was also stumped at first but if you look at WJ's post, the signal route is something like this - Valve CD player > 24 bit/ch D/A > Valve unit > Valve pre-amp > audiophile CD recorder 1:1 speed all the way. There's no mention of any form of EQ'ing going on and I'm quite sure the pre-amp used is also of a bare-bone version with no or minimal tone control.

The valve purists have argued for years that any decent valve output stage has better resolution, transperency and more "soul" than the best of what MOSFET can throw at it. In fact, in May 1973, the prestigious Journal of the Audio Engineering Society of New York (AES) published the most definitive study ever undertaken regarding the sound quality of vacuum tube equipment: Tubes vs. Transistors - Is There An Audible Difference? -By Russell O. Hamm.

After critical subjective and in-depth technical analysis, these two essential areas defining vacuum tube sound were disclosed:

1) "Our extensive checking indicated...a definite audible difference in the sound quality...where there is a mechanical-electrical interface." "...power amplifiers driving speakers..."

2) "The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighting of harmonic distortion components in the amplifier's overload region."

Not suprisingly, during a recent listening session in a friend's car who has 2 TBD Butler Tube amps and a tube output Pre-amp, I realised that the level of details produced by these amps are just staggering as I started hearing of notes and things that I did not even hear from the same disc in other non valve powered systems.

 

[wirelessjunkie]

Originally posted by affan66@Jan 10 2006, 12:26 PM
puzzling but seriously off topic.
How come something that is already lost, signal-wise, reappears after going through valve processing.
Isn't this similar to having an EQ to boost up certain frequencies?

Flat bro, flatter than the flattest chick you can find in town. No adjustments whatsoever. You are talking about a hard core audiophile with his toys. What I gave him was a ripped copy of a CD which he "processed". We did a comparison against the original and surprise surprise.

 

[affan66]

I am not saying that there is a 'physical' EQ, but introducing anything in between the signal path distorts no matter what. I believe this is called colorization. A warm sound (tube-like) sound does not mean it's the true sound. Sometimes, what the audio engineer and artist wanted out of the recording is different than what we want.

Or am I wrong here? Ooops *warning* super serious off-topic.
Just a simple discussion on 'sound.' Just like changing cables changes the signature of the sound. true??

The most difference I could hear was when between Kimber Cables and Cardas. Anything above that, my ear give up already. A simple blind test can reveal many many things.

 

[wirelessjunkie]

Originally posted by Vanquish@Jan 10 2006, 01:10 PM
[....., I realised that the level of details produced by these amps are just staggering as I started hearing of notes and things that I did not even hear from the same disc in other non valve powered systems.

Now imagine that someone remastered the track with valve characteristics into a normal CD so that your non valve amp can benefit from the harmonics? Awesome.

 

[saat]

Too serious too high for me. I fold. That is why I am going back to MP3 because I have become tone deaf now.

 

[affan66]

saat,

my peak years were during my uni days. Part-timing, installing and assembling hi-end systems to pay for my hobby. really had the knack of listening. Now, anything goes. MP3 pun ok. Even MP3 on Realplayer on my PDA is good.

Plus I have my own natural sound system in the car. My daughter asking a gazillion questions when I am driving. Had to switch of the hi-fi and layan her.

*burning CD now*

 

[wirelessjunkie]

Originally posted by affan66@Jan 10 2006, 10:25 PM
........ A simple blind test can reveal many many things.

That certainly brings back memories. You know what, that was how we did the test. I loaded up my changer with both the disc and didn't tell the listeners which is which disc, this includes Simon too and I was totally flabergalsted. Everyone was fooled, included myself safe for Simon who knows his harmonics. I could hear the guitars clearly in the background which was rather mixed with other instruments on the original CD and the rest goes on and on...

This is really an experience that you should try...amazing. Bad for the wallet though as your CDs will never ever sound the same again.

 

[erica34]

never ending story on tweaking but fun to go through... cables, cones, mana table, seismic sink, marble slab, spikes, toslink spdif, green pen, freezing cds, change carpets, change curtains, fire speakers different directions and angles, ponteng kelas... should've just bought a better system but would've missed the fun that came with the journey... after a while, most get tired and settle down listening to music rather than messing with the system...

wj, that japanese singer playing in town... u going?

 

[saat]

Lets do a simple test of seriousness. Who has an RTA?

 

[wirelessjunkie]

Originally posted by erica34@Jan 10 2006, 10:49 PM
never ending story on tweaking but fun to go through... cables, cones, mana table, seismic sink, marble slab, spikes, toslink spdif, green pen, freezing cds, change carpets, change curtains, fire speakers different directions and angles, ponteng kelas... should've just bought a better system but would've missed the fun that came with the journey... after a while, most get tired and settle down listening to music rather than messing with the system...

wj, that japanese singer playing in town... u going?

When? Don't mind catching her.

 

[erica34]

Originally posted by wirelessjunkie@Jan 10 2006, 11:00 PM
When? Don't mind catching her.

read on thestar she'll be playing at hardrock this saturday 8.30pm

 

[saat]

Hooi, why dont you two make it a date?

 

[wirelessjunkie]

Yup, just read it. Her other man is coming too *sigh*

 

[Vanquish]

Originally posted by wirelessjunkie+Jan 10 2006, 10:36 PM-->QUOTE (wirelessjunkie @ Jan 10 2006, 10:36 PM)

 

[Vanquish]

Originally posted by affan66@Jan 10 2006, 10:25 PM
I am not saying that there is a 'physical' EQ, but introducing anything in between the signal path distorts no matter what. I believe this is called colorization. A warm sound (tube-like) sound does not mean it's the true sound. Sometimes, what the audio engineer and artist wanted out of the recording is different than what we want.

Or am I wrong here? Ooops *warning* super serious off-topic.
Just a simple discussion on 'sound.' Just like changing cables changes the signature of the sound. true??

The most difference I could hear was when between Kimber Cables and Cardas. Anything above that, my ear give up already. A simple blind test can reveal many many things.

** We're not OT ... I think we're still discussing ICE related topics as these arguments apply both in car and at home **

Affan ... good point but don't you think even MOSFET and other form of solid state power supply also introduce coloration on the end result ? Take this usual adage of Italian amps like Audison, PHD, Steg and etc being WARM sounding while Helix, Xetec, Brax, Zapco are supposedly CLEAN sounding. Most if not all of these amps are MOSFET powered ... the only difference being the components like boards, PCBs, caps, resistors and power supplies being the main difference. And yet, our brains easily adjust to what we're hearing and it hits us with a thought like " Damn, this amp sounds way cleaner and more detailed than that XYZ amp!"

It's actually here the tubes gather that upper hand over the solid states as it's tied up in the sensing instrument - that is, your ear. The way the human ear works is that it is very sensitive to the harmonic content of a sound. A tube amp is less linear (that is, has more distortion) at signal levels below clipping than a solid state amplifier. The distortion will increase slowly, and then more rapidly as the amp starts to clip. In fact, the distortion increases so gradually and is of such a benign nature that the onset of audible distortion has no easily defined threshold. The solid state amplifier on the other hand has no such gradualism. It is almost perfectly non-distorting right up to the point that it clips, and then it clips HARD. It's easy to hear the threshold.

This sudden onset of distortion is also composed of relatively harsh sounding distortion, not like the subtle second and third harmonics of the tube amp. The human ear hears the sudden harsh distortion as clipping and harshness. It interprets the low order distortion of the tube amp as a louder sound, not as distortion. In effect, the tube amp fools the ear into thinking that its early distortion is more loudness. They therefore sound louder or more powerful than the actual measurements show are really there.

But I remember this saying very well ... IF YOU'RE STILL LOOKING FOR NEUTRAL AUDIO GEARS ... STOP LOOKING. THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS NEUTRAL GEARS IN REALITY. As you said it, if such a simple thing like a signal cable swap make a noticeable difference in a system, then doesn't that just reaffirm the above ? Basically, all sound reproduction adds color, because sound reproduction is about taking a three-dimensional sound waveform, squashing it into two dimensions, and then attempting to recreate the original 3-D in another media.

 

[affan66]

van,

true. But the major difference here is that:

1. We are creating a CD from a source by introducing gadgets like them tubes
2. We are reproducing the sound from a CD created from a source that went through the gadgets called tubes.

Based on your points above, aren't we introducing another layer of coloration on top of the already colored MOSFETs?

My point is simple.
Scenario:
Let's say in the original recording, the 80Hz frequency is way too low to hear, produced by say, a drum.
Take that CD, put it through what WJ mentioned, and voila, we get the 80Hz frequency.
What puzzles me then is where did the 80Hz frequency come from IF the original CD did not produce it in the first place?

I am all for tubes but shouldn't we go back to the original master to produce the sonic nirvana standard CD and then reproduce that sound with the shortest, cleanest signal path?

Anyway, I'd like to get a copy of the CD and see what gremlins come out of it.

Regarding cable swaps:
Yes, you get different sound, but isn't this called the sound signature (warm, flat, neutral, forward-sounding, hollow bla bla bla) but is it as per the original recording or as per what the audio engineer intended?

It's like having the debate over LP vs CDs.

We've been fooled. Like Saat, I'm going for MP3 and WMA
My wallet feels heavier this way

 

[nikazwaa]

Originally posted by affan66@Jan 11 2006, 08:33 AM
We've been fooled. Like Saat, I'm going for MP3 and WMA
My wallet feels heavier this way

As long as we sample from the original source with the correct sampling and bit rate, MP3s are really close to the real thing.

 

[Vanquish]

Affan,

Fully agreed. But ironically, even the master copy is a victim of coloration itself IMHO ... and it happens at the point of recording itself. The surroundings, mic placement, amps, EQs, cables, sound monitors used also contribute in some manner towards coloring the sound of that copy as opposed to how the singer or performer produced it. And if the recording itself isn't an accurate representation of the original sound, then an accurate sound won't sound realistic, would it ??? Damn ... this is slowly becoming almost like tubes vs solid state or CD vs LP kinda thread .... gotta stop!

Basic law of physics - Every material resonates when struck or activated. This is how different materials, or for that matter musical instruments, make their identifiable sounds or tones hence any sound reproduction system imbues an "audible signature" on all signals passing through it.

To quote J. Gordon Holt in Stereophile - " Even after more than 116 years of technological advancement (footnote 1), today's almost-perfect sound reproduction still cannot duplicate the sound of "the real thing" well enough to fool someone who has learned to listen analytically---a trained listener. But the goal of literal realism, or "accuracy," remains the standard against which a subjective reviewer evaluates any audio product design".

Yeah ... since my HU does not support MP3 or WMA, I'm getting a stackful of those RM 5.00 pirated CDs and save my wallet in the process. Hehehehehe !!! To the hell with High Fidelity !!!!

 

[affan66]

so, if the master copy sudah kena color. Should we add more color to it? This is what I am trying to drive at.

Which is why we get high when we see remasters from Chesky, Blue Note, etc and look down on the originals. No? Even pasar malam CD has the XRCD or SACD sticker. How?

 

[Vanquish]

Woit ... of course we buy local la. Must support local wannabe entrepreneurs, ma .... even if they are small time ones.

P/S - I love this thread .... one page on CD download ... we're 2-up on equipment and sound coloration !!! Ahahahahaha! But I think over the years, our ears have grown accustomed coloration in whatever form ... clean sounding music, warm sounding tracks and in some cases even from matching equipment. But like what WJ said, I'd love to do a simple comparo between those "burned" CDs and their original source just to see/hear the difference. Quickly call for the ICE TT, la ...