Oil change interval

[ciklee]

My ride has clocked 17k++ and the oil life monitor says i still got another 11k before an oil change. I bought the car from ab premium used. When i bought the car, its mileage was 10k++ km. The salesman told me the car has had an oil change circa 7k++ km and recommends that i change the oil every 10k km rather than following the suggested service interval specified by the car computer. But i need to pay for it since bsri doesn't cover early service.I googled around and found out that the f10 used condition based service (cbs) where advanced algorithms used data provided by sensors to calculate when is the optimum service interval based on our usage pattern. So the next oil change would be around 28k++ km according to the car's computer. This means the oil change interval is 20k km.What are your take on this? Should i stick with 20k or change the oil every 10k and pay for every other service until bsri expires (btw my bsri is 5 yrs). I googled and have come to conclusion that most synthetic oil is good for abt 10k miles. Thats 18,000 in kilometers so im incline to follow the computer's advise instead of the salesman's. Unless someone can give me a good reason why i should change the oil earlier. I mean concrete and logical reason(s), NOT "better-safe-than-sorry" or "kereta-mahal2-buleh-beli-takkan-tukar-minyak-itam-pon-berkira" type of arguments p

 

[anaksarawak]

It's such an expensive car go change the oil every 10,000km or 6 months to prevent sludge.

There so many cars with sludge issue due to this prolong service interval.

Some of us change our oil every 5000km with semi syn oil as we want fresh oil for our car

 

[astroboy]

Forced induction car oil change interval should be shorten. If I have forced induction car, my oil change interval shouldn't exceed 8k km on full synthetic, 5k km for semi synthetic and 3k km for mineral..

 

[anaksarawak]

TESCO is selling Mobil 1 5-50 for RM149

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-50.aspx

 

[fabianyee]

Our tropical high humidity climate will speed up building up of sludge.
Many cars from BMW and other marques encountered engine issues in the long run after sticking to the prolonged service interval.

Also if the car is used mainly in city traffic, the faster the engine oil becomes dirty compared to long distance trips.

U might want to read this threads (Just search for sludge in the forum)

http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/foru...BMW-Service-Recomendation...&highlight=sludge
http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/forums/showthread.php?32872-Oil-Sludge&highlight=sludge

 

[fabianyee]

See this post. And this is probably when the 10k service interval the salesman recommeded started... back in 2010...

http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/forums/showthread.php?32872-Oil-Sludge&p=497056&viewfull=1#post497056

I am a victim of Oil Sludge. Car is still at Auto Bavaria, Sg. Besi. Has been there for almost 2 months. Bought the car from them brand new and service by them since day one. Service when indicator on dash tells me to. Even change tires from them. No one have touched my car other them Auto Bavaria, Sg. Besi mechanics. Car is a July 2005 E90 325i CBU. Mileage only 52k – hardly drive.

One morning, when I start the car, the entire engine vibrates badly and sound very bad. Tow it to AB, Sg. Besi. They said my engine had massive sludge and requires a completely overhaul. I asked to fax me the quotation expecting it to cost about RM10k. To my surprise, they quoted me RM39k and that excludes labor.

After weeks of complain, even all the way up to BMW Malaysia. I asked for a new engine which cost RM52k but they refused. I threaten to announce to car magazines, clubs, newspaper and forums. They finally agree to give me 60% discount on parts only. This discount is from BMW Malaysia and not AB. In their letter, they said the discount is given to me out of goodwill and 60% is max because my car is already out of warranty.

With Sapura, Ingress and Quill in the market, I demanded AB to pay the remaining 40%. They couldn’t but gave me 50% on labor. So, the total bill is now RM23k come with 2 years warranty.

Car will be ready by end March because cylinder heads has to come from Germany.

They told me my first service was Shell engine oil, thereafter it was Petronas Syntium 3000 LL all the way.

They tell me to ignore the dash indicator. Just service every 10k kilometers or 6 months.

I also have a 2002/2004 E46 320i (2.2L) CBU M-Sport from Naza. Mileage is 80k now - also hardly drive but never give me any problem. Serviced at BM Auto since day one every 10k kilometers.

 

[anaksarawak]

Agreed with fabianyee, so have your oil change as often as possible.

See this post. And this is probably when the 10k service interval the salesman recommeded started... back in 2010...

http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/forums/showthread.php?32872-Oil-Sludge&p=497056&viewfull=1#post497056

 

[Lancelot Adolph]

I had mine for almost 14 months, clocked with 40k km ; I service my car every 10k km, that's recommended by the service technicians at Ingress.

I forged out approx RM 700 +/- for each additional service.

 

[ciklee]

thanks for the replies guys. really appreciate it.

most quoted the dreaded sludge problem to justify changing the oil at frequent intervals. I do agree that frequent oil change does help minimize the risk of oil sludging by removing contaminants and replenishing those needed additives/detergents. but it seems different people have different opinions on what "frequent" should mean. some say 10k km, some even say between 5k to 8k km. i believe it all depends on our driving style and proper car maintenance/routine checks, thus why BMW introduce the CBS i.e. fancy electronics with mumbo-jumbo algorithms that recommends service interval based on usage and/or condition of the serviceable items. Plus, doesn't the latest synthetic oil formulation and advanced engine design and metallurgy help minimize the sludge problem and extend service interval?

I used to own a honda civic. compared to the beemer, the civic was relatively thrashed i.e. start and go (didn't warmup the car) and mostly short stop-go trip around town. I owned the car for 3 years and accumulate about 30k km, quite low because i only use it for short trips. only change the oil once, after about 20k km from the last service before i sold the car off. even then i felt membazir changing the oil because it was still relatively clear when i drained the oil (i changed the oil myself). although the oil change was only done once, i routinely check and monitor the health of the car. i make sure the engine oil level and condition are good (oh how i miss the trusty dip stick), coolant level is ok, check all hoses and engine for coolant and oil leaks, always monitor the engine temp gauge while driving, listen to weird sound/rattle/knocks coming from the engine/gearbox/suspension, etc. i believe with routine inspection you know if something is wrong. during my ownership, the car was faultless. honda does make good and reliable cars.

my point is, with the advanced technology, electronics, sensors and algorithms that BMW is putting into their cars that takes the hassle of doing vehicle inspection from users plus using good quality synthetic oil, do we need to be feeling overly cautious and change the oil too frequent, wasting money and perfectly good oil while contaminating the environment?

btw, does anyone know where I can send the used engine oil for analysis here in Malaysia? I guess the only way would be to have the oil analysed every 10k, 15k and 20k to draw meaningful conclusions. if yes, do you know how much per analysis?

 

[ciklee]

does our hot weather really accelerate the sludge buildup? i think engine temperature in most part of the world is about the same i.e. circa 90-100 degree C which is definitely hotter even than saharan desert.

Our tropical high humidity climate will speed up building up of sludge.
Many cars from BMW and other marques encountered engine issues in the long run after sticking to the prolonged service interval.

Also if the car is used mainly in city traffic, the faster the engine oil becomes dirty compared to long distance trips.

U might want to read this threads (Just search for sludge in the forum)

http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/foru...BMW-Service-Recomendation...&highlight=sludge
http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/forums/showthread.php?32872-Oil-Sludge&highlight=sludge

 

[fabianyee]

thanks for the replies guys. really appreciate it.

most quoted the dreaded sludge problem to justify changing the oil at frequent intervals. I do agree that frequent oil change does help minimize the risk of oil sludging by removing contaminants and replenishing those needed additives/detergents. but it seems different people have different opinions on what "frequent" should mean. some say 10k km, some even say between 5k to 8k km. i believe it all depends on our driving style and proper car maintenance/routine checks, thus why BMW introduce the CBS i.e. fancy electronics with mumbo-jumbo algorithms that recommends service interval based on usage and/or condition of the serviceable items. Plus, doesn't the latest synthetic oil formulation and advanced engine design and metallurgy help minimize the sludge problem and extend service interval?

I used to own a honda civic. compared to the beemer, the civic was relatively thrashed i.e. start and go (didn't warmup the car) and mostly short stop-go trip around town. I owned the car for 3 years and accumulate about 30k km, quite low because i only use it for short trips. only change the oil once, after about 20k km from the last service before i sold the car off. even then i felt membazir changing the oil because it was still relatively clear when i drained the oil (i changed the oil myself). although the oil change was only done once, i routinely check and monitor the health of the car. i make sure the engine oil level and condition are good (oh how i miss the trusty dip stick), coolant level is ok, check all hoses and engine for coolant and oil leaks, always monitor the engine temp gauge while driving, listen to weird sound/rattle/knocks coming from the engine/gearbox/suspension, etc. i believe with routine inspection you know if something is wrong. during my ownership, the car was faultless. honda does make good and reliable cars.

my point is, with the advanced technology, electronics, sensors and algorithms that BMW is putting into their cars that takes the hassle of doing vehicle inspection from users plus using good quality synthetic oil, do we need to be feeling overly cautious and change the oil too frequent, wasting money and perfectly good oil while contaminating the environment?

btw, does anyone know where I can send the used engine oil for analysis here in Malaysia? I guess the only way would be to have the oil analysed every 10k, 15k and 20k to draw meaningful conclusions. if yes, do you know how much per analysis?

I understand where you're coming from, but actually this real-life long term test is something BMW Malaysia or even BMW AG should be looking at conducting. Not the consumers.

Another thing is how accurate is the sensors and algorithm formulated? in what climates? was any of the benchmark tests done in Malaysia? As we know, all this new tech are developed with many known factors and assumptions. And many more factors were not taken into account yet. So it's technically still under development. In essence, the consumers are testing the newly developed products for them.

 

[astroboy]

does our hot weather really accelerate the sludge buildup? i think engine temperature in most part of the world is about the same i.e. circa 90-100 degree C which is definitely hotter even than saharan desert.

Our engine oil sludge here also partly caused by the sulfuric acid due to the combustion of fuel rich with sulfur.

 

[ciklee]

Pardon my ignorance but I don't understand what has our climate got to do with engine testing? As far as I know, the engine is a closed loop system and the engineers just need to make sure it behave according to specifications at its normal operating temperature. For most cars, this is around 90-100 deg C. I might be speculating here but manufacturers such as BMW might even test their engines at broader operating temperature range (i.e. between 60-130 deg C, example only bcoz I don't know the actual test environment) to stress the engine and simulate accelerated engine wear. I believe they should have enough test data, with respect to oil sludge problem, to recommend such long service interval. Again, I'm speculating here bcoz i don't have access to their test data.

I believe most oil sludge problem occurs when the engine is operating outside its specified temperature. A defective or inefficient cooling and emission control systems probably the one to blame rather than oil change at 20k km intervals. A relatively cold engine will burn rich fuel-to-air mixture, meaning more hydocarbons that can contaminate the oil, accelerating sludge formation. Coupled with a defective EGR system, the engine will surely rosak. Cold running engine could be due to faulty thermostat that is stuck open, allowing the coolant to circulate around the engine and then cooled down by the radiator. Faulty fan that is always running can also contribute to this. An engine that is running too hot can crack the head allowing coolant to get into the engine oil. This would definitely form sludge at lightning speed. A hot running engine can be caused by insufficient coolant due to leaking, or faulty thermostat that is stuck closed. So always check coolant level and identify if it is leaking. If you find yourself needing to top up coolant, then there's a leak somewhere. Another tip is to feel the outlet hose when the engine is cold and at operating temperature. If you do this routine enough, you can tell when the cooling system might need to be looked at.

So always check the temperature gauge, both when it is too hot as well as too cold. It should be near operating temperature most times. For E60 guys, too bad the car doesn't come with one but coolant temperature can still be checked from one of the hidden OBD menus. Also, get into the habits of warming the engine up from cold start, especially if you do a lot of short trips.

I understand where you're coming from, but actually this real-life long term test is something BMW Malaysia or even BMW AG should be looking at conducting. Not the consumers.

Another thing is how accurate is the sensors and algorithm formulated? in what climates? was any of the benchmark tests done in Malaysia? As we know, all this new tech are developed with many known factors and assumptions. And many more factors were not taken into account yet. So it's technically still under development. In essence, the consumers are testing the newly developed products for them.

 

[ciklee]

This is true for our local diesel. Hence, in general diesel cars have shorter oil change intervals compared to petrol car. But does it apply to our local petrol as well? If I remembered correctly, someone did an analysis on our local petrols and the quality is actually comparable to those in Europe, specifically the sulfur content is relatively low. I read the report on paultan.org some time ago. I'll try finding that link again and post it here. Maybe paultan himself can give his opinion since he's a member of this club as well.

Our engine oil sludge here also partly caused by the sulfuric acid due to the combustion of fuel rich with sulfur.

 

[fabianyee]

Close loop? How about the ambient air (filled with dust, moisture, bla bla bla) it sucked in for combustion? Not everything goes out as exhaust gas. There are residue which got left behind and then 'cleaned' by the engine oil. Otherwise, the engine oil wouldn't need to have cleaning detergent apart from lubrication.

Anyway, me no expert on engine oil. Only know the general concept of things on surface. But to say that the engine operates in a close loop system is something beyond me. Feel free to enlighten us.

 

[ciklee]

here is the link of fuel analysis at paultan.org. the data was from 2004. now 8 years later I think it should improve being compliant to Euro 4. Again I'm speculating since I don't have the current data. Maybe paul can investigate :burnout:

http://paultan.org/2007/02/25/analy...ut-of-6-already-euro-ii-compliant-for-petrol/

 

[astroboy]

It's more towards our lousy quality fuel..

http://www.yotarepair.com/sludge article.html


------------------------------------------------------------
Contaminants and Sludge

Contaminants are deadly enemies of an engine. They enter with the air flow and are also generated by the friction of metal against metal. These facts may astound you: for every 100 gallons of gasoline burned in an engine, the following by-products are produced:


90 to 120 gallons of water

3 to 10 gallons of unburned gasoline

1/2 to 3 pounds of soot and carbon

1/4 to 1 pound of varnish

1 to 4 pounds of sulfuric and nitric acid

A measurable percentage of these by-products ends up in the motor oil. Detergents and dispersants in the oil must be able to keep most of these con-taminants neutralized or suspended in the oil as microscopic particles so they don't form sludge, damaging deposits and corrosion. When the waste materials are dispersed properly in the oil, the filter can trap the larger particles. During an oil change, the contaminants too small to be filtered are re-moved with the engine oil. Looks good on paper, right? So much for the perfect world. It's important to note here that good air filters and good oil filters trap more contaminants than lesser quality filters, making the oil's job easier.

------------------------------------------------------------

100 U.S. gallons = 378.541 Litres

Imagine your FC is 13L/100km, 100 U.S. gallons give you 2,911km. So if 10k km, you'll get 3x the above containment and some will end up in your engine oil.

Fabian is right, moisture too.. our air is so moist and will wear the oil additive render it defenseless to sludge.

 

[ciklee]

Sorry if my choice of words confuses you. I agree that petrol combustion is inefficient and some residue/contaminants are left behind and goes to the engine oil. Overtime, the engine oil will lose its effectiveness both as lubricant as well as cleaner. But such scenarios should be easily simulated during testing, no? And manufacturers should have sufficient data to conclude engine oil degradation, due to "normal" engine operation and contribution from other systems, should be relatively slow (I object your honour, speculative!!) to warrant longer service interval. My opinion is that only when the engine is not running at its optimum temperature and condition that the oil degradation is accelerated, thus the need to change the engine oil more frequent.

For the specific case of the F10, the car comes with various electronics and systems that monitor engine conditions at all time. Shouldn't we rely on these extra data/information to gauge whether it is justifiable to change engine oil at shorter intervals? Or should we trust that BMW knows what they're doing and accept the car's recommendation at face value?

Close loop? How about the ambient air (filled with dust, moisture, bla bla bla) it sucked in for combustion? Not everything goes out as exhaust gas. There are residue which got left behind and then 'cleaned' by the engine oil. Otherwise, the engine oil wouldn't need to have cleaning detergent apart from lubrication.

Anyway, me no expert on engine oil. Only know the general concept of things on surface. But to say that the engine operates in a close loop system is something beyond me. Feel free to enlighten us.

 

[fabianyee]

Sorry if my choice of words confuses you. I agree that petrol combustion is inefficient and some residue/contaminants are left behind and goes to the engine oil. Overtime, the engine oil will lose its effectiveness both as lubricant as well as cleaner. But such scenarios should be easily simulated during testing, no? And manufacturers should have sufficient data to conclude engine oil degradation, due to "normal" engine operation and contribution from other systems, should be relatively slow (I object your honour, speculative!!) to warrant longer service interval. My opinion is that only when the engine is not running at its optimum temperature and condition that the oil degradation is accelerated, thus the need to change the engine oil more frequent.

For the specific case of the F10, the car comes with various electronics and systems that monitor engine conditions at all time. Shouldn't we rely on these extra data/information to gauge whether it is justifiable to change engine oil at shorter intervals? Or should we trust that BMW knows what they're doing and accept the car's recommendation at face value?

I've given the real life example of sludge issue which happened to one of the forummers. And many unreported cases too. Some I've seen at workshops, especially those after warranty period, with bang balls repair bills. The system and the algorithm may not have been perfected. Maybe good for european and US climate and not for us Malaysian climate, who knows. U can also browse all the overseas forums and seek out sludge issue problems and see if it only affects Malaysian cars or it's a worldwide issue.

 

[ciklee]

Good point. I don't think the car has sensor that can detect water content in the air and fuel so maybe the algorithm doesn't account for this effect. Does anyone know if this is the case i.e. does the F10 has moisture content sensor or something similar that does the job? If not, then I might just change my mind and change the oil earlier. Or maybe I should investigate this further. Thanks for the input.

Fabian is right, moisture too.. our air is so moist and will wear the oil additive render it defenseless to sludge.