V-Power - Hmmmm.....

[MSport]

Just wanted to "treat" my car to V-Power on 2 refills. :love:

Noticed that I could go further than normal (of course at a premium price per liter) by about 50km+. But the OBC shows the same FC but the estimated mileage range is further. Also, my journey routes remain about the same.

Anybody have the same situation? What is there in V-Power that does this?

P.S Cannot tahan lah to pay the RM0.45/lit extra. :eek: Will revert back to normal the next round after my current tank runs out.

[infinityKL]

hi Msport, i second that...

My rides only drinks Vpower.. im getting more mileage too compared to a year ago when i was still on regular... on a full tank im getting an extra 50-60km's..

[nikazwaa]

But does the extra price justify the extra mileage?

[turbology]

Try Shell Super.
Same RON octane as V-power.

You get less mileage with Regular because is only RON 92. (not because the gas is bad, is because you get timing retard)
Some Shell station only have Regular and V-power. Why no Super ? Because V-power is more profitable

[MSport]

But does the extra price justify the extra mileage?

That's the big-big question! :wink:

For my E90, full tank is about 63liters. Assuming you pump to about 60 liters, which is RM2.00 x 60 liters = RM120

Compared to V-Power is RM2.45 x 60 liters = RM147

Will RM27 justify the additional 50-60km? Let's translate RM27 back to petrol at RM2.00 per liter which is about 13.5 liters.

13.5 liters for 50-60km? Is it worth it? Assuming the manufacturer's specs for 325 is 9l/100km, it's a bit under. But given our malaysian traffic, looks reasonable though.

P.S Not sure what additional additives are there in V-Power though.

[Schwepps]

Just wanted to "treat" my car to V-Power on 2 refills. :love:

Noticed that I could go further than normal (of course at a premium price per liter) by about 50km+. But the OBC shows the same FC but the estimated mileage range is further. Also, my journey routes remain about the same.

Anybody have the same situation? What is there in V-Power that does this?

P.S Cannot tahan lah to pay the RM0.45/lit extra. :eek: Will revert back to normal the next round after my current tank runs out.

MSport, I've been using V-Power exclusively in my E90, and my long term FC is 11.8 after 11,000km. If you're getting 12+ to 13+ FC compared to my 11.8, then I reckon that the extra cost is worth it. Are you looking at your trip FC or long term FC? It's not going to show a difference if you're looking at long term FC as that is an average. You should base your calculations on trip FC.

Mind you, my right foot is pretty heavy as I believe in bringing the engine near to red-line at least every few days. So I've been impressed with the E90's FC for a 218hp car. :top:

BTW, in terms of power, I can't feel a difference between Super and V-Power in my more powerful cars, but I can certainly feel the difference in our small car and previous 4WD.

[chookleng]

Try Shell Super.
Same RON octane as V-power.

You get less mileage with Regular because is only RON 92. (not because the gas is bad, is because you get timing retard)
Some Shell station only have Regular and V-power. Why no Super ? Because V-power is more profitable

dude the shell "super" is also in red colour right? wat is the price? ehhh u sure the super is same v-power?

[evilnickwong]

I thought Regular is RON92, Super is RON97 and V-Power is RON99.

[turbology]

I thought Regular is RON92, Super is RON97 and V-Power is RON99.

No.
Regular is RON92
Super and V-power are both RON97

[chookleng]

No.
Regular is RON92
Super and V-power are both RON97

bro, wat fuel u feed ur ride then? v-power or super?

[turbology]

Neither.
I prefer Caltex or Mobil. RON 97 for my e36 of course.

Is hard to find Super or Regular on Shell gas station.(they either have one or the other, never both. My VIOS use RON 92). So I just give up shell, and don't go.

[B33mEr]

BHP ... i'm surprised no one mentioned about BHP ... so far IMHO BHP sits in between shell super and V-power ... i'm very satisfied with BHP tho V-power is still d best :D

[turbology]

I dont' see how V-power being "the best" since Octane rating is the same.

For 0.45 more, I will just mix myself

[B33mEr]

lol ... mix with what???

[Hellraiser]

used cooking oil....

[MSport]

dude the shell "super" is also in red colour right? wat is the price? ehhh u sure the super is same v-power?

Super is green lah!

[E46Fanatic]

Actually the higher compression your engine is, or forced induced, you'll benefit from better higher octane fuels. Wont make much a difference on std engines.

Check out 5th Gear's Review on BHP, Shell and normal fuels (http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=601&featureid=143&pageid=-1)

The N52 325i compression ratio is 11:1, which is JDM type R category. You'll hear the engine pinging away like in my case (although got knock sensor) on normal fuel under low RPM load. For my case I've sinced changed from normal shell green to v-power and the pings are virtually gone.

Torque also feels a lot stronger.

[B33mEr]

Actually the higher compression your engine is, or forced induced, you'll benefit from better higher octane fuels. Wont make much a difference on std engines.

Check out 5th Gear's Review on BHP, Shell and normal fuels (http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=601&featureid=143&pageid=-1)

The N52 325i compression ratio is 11:1, which is JDM type R category. You'll hear the engine pinging away like in my case (although got knock sensor) on normal fuel under low RPM load. For my case I've sinced changed from normal shell green to v-power and the pings are virtually gone.

Torque also feels a lot stronger.

hehehe ... so i am correct then :D according to fifth gear website Vpower manage 249 hp and BHP manage 248hp and normal fuel manage 232hp ... :top:

[turbology]

Actually the higher compression your engine is, or forced induced, you'll benefit from better higher octane fuels. Wont make much a difference on std engines.

Unfortunately, not exactly true. Is not just "higher compresison need higher octane". It depend how the car is tune to run on what gasoline. Some engine that is 9.x:1 compression require RON97 or higher.

Your link to your 5th review on fuels is also misleading.
Shell V-power octane rating vary from RON95 to RON100 throughout the world.
I assume the reviews was done in UK. UK's V-power has rating of RON99
Link: http://www.shell.co.uk/home/content/gbr/products_services/on_the_road/fuels/v_power_pkg/overview.html
Lnk2: http://www.shell.com/home/content/gbr/products_services/on_the_road/fuels/v_power_pkg/tech_spec.html

And sadly, Malaysia V-power is still RON97.

BP has no affiliation with BHP. Both is different company. BP sold thier business to BHP (Boustead Holdings) in 2006
Is the fuel the same ? I am not sure. Many said BHP claimed is not. But what I know is, the fuel definately different from the one in UK :)

Cheers

[wc9922]

The performance of a gasoline blend is not just hinged on the RON alone (research octane number).

The RON number only indicates the fuel performance under predetermined load test prescribed under ASTM 2699 testing method requirements. RON number usually gives an indicator of the fuels characteristic under constant load conditions in 4 stroke engines, i.e simulating cruize or low load conditions.

Another fuel performance indicator is called MON ( motor octane number) prescribed under ASTM 2700 test testing requirements. MON test are involves more severe varying load test conditions giving an indication of the fuels performance characteristics under severe load conditions.

The higher the numbers for MON or RON just means the fuel have a higher knock resistance capability for the control test conditions benchmarked to pure components. Usually MON numbers are lower than RON numbers.

What is important is the average of the fuels RON and MON numbers which give u another term called OCTANE NUMBER = [RON+MON]/2. But they never tell u the Octane Number of the fuel, do they? Nor do they tell you the MON.

So in the case of V-power, It may still have l have the same RON of 97 as the ' Super' but it may have a MON rating higher than Super so overall u get a higher OCTANE NUMBER rating. That is why with V-power u may sense u do get the performance as well as some fuel economy on the side. But this is only apperent on cars that run under closed loop ECU control.

Gasoline specs are very complex/secret also as the composition (% by volume) of gasoline are consist of many HC compounds such as oxygenates, paraffins, reformate, isomerates, aromatics, olefins and benzenes.These does not includes the additives. U change something u change the RON and MON as well as other thinngs like vapor pressure etc.

But generally have to fall within a certain range of ASTM test values to be classified as UL92 or UL97 grade for the market.

I can tell u the gasoline base stock for V-Power and Shell Super is different. Shell Super grade is refined in Port Dickson refinery while the V-power base gasoline is imported from Shell Singapore Bukom refinery. Shell PD's refining operating mode/process technology is not able to produce a final mogas blend that matches V-power's base composition requirements at present.

The additive package for Super and V-power are different as well. This is normally injected at the truck loading area of the refinery before heading out to the petrol stations.

So I hope this would enlighten you guys to why V-power cost 50sen more than Super while u think the RON number is the same.

[B33mEr]

^^^ wow excellent post very informative ... thanks :top:

[Gerald 5]

Thank you wc9922 & turbology, it is such an excellent info for many. I am no techko but would like to know 1 thing for sure.
Should I use V-Power assuming cost is never a factor?? Thanks
M54B30
M40B18

[wc9922]

Thank you wc9922 & turbology, it is such an excellent info for many. I am no techko but would like to know 1 thing for sure.
Should I use V-Power assuming cost is never a factor?? Thanks
M54B30
M40B18

Gerald,

I think you will find your 530i will respond to V-power better due to it's ECU's capabilities to adapt to fuel quality. But you got to let the DME adapt to it first maybe after 20-30 mins of driving as it will adjust your short term fuel trim and timing. Vise versa when u go from V-power to the normal grade fuel. Clearing adaptation values would enable the dme to relearn your trim values faster.

For those guys driving big cc performance cars like a Porsche/Ferrari/AMG/Brabus/M or with force induction, they can tell the diff cause the power difference is significantlynoticable on their rides if they change the fuel grade due to the way the engine is designed from the start.

[Schwepps]

Gasoline specs are very complex/secret also as the composition (% by volume) of gasoline are consist of many HC compounds such as oxygenates, paraffins, reformate, isomerates, aromatics, olefins and benzenes.These does not includes the additives. U change something u change the RON and MON as well as other thinngs like vapor pressure etc.


Thanks for the informative post wc. :top: What you said matches what an oil company exec told me at a dinner once: not all fuels are the same, because the formulations differ among the brands, and grades within a brand. And that's even before considering the additives. BTW, are you an oil exec? :)

I'm not one to fall for marketing blurb such as 'detergent' or 'friction reducing' properties, and branding associations such as F1 and Ferrari. I do my own comparisons and for the past 10+ years, km and lit stats of every full tank for each car go into an Excel program in my PDA. So my FC records are very accurate and long term. I can say definitively that FC with V-Power is better by 5-10% compared with Super in all my cars. I never use Regular, so no comparison with that.

Regarding torque and willingness to rev, I hear what you say about performance cars. But my own findings are that I can't feel a difference in my above 180hp lux cars, but I can definitely feel a difference in my Myvi and previous Pajero. In a small cc car or heavy 4WD, small changes in hp can be felt easily. Any comments about this wc?

[wc9922]

Bro Schwepps,

I am not an oil exec but I do provide services to them as part of my job.

Euro4 diesel? We can't produce it for the time being unless the plants undergo revamping, which I hope they would be so I have more work ..Ha ha....

I think what u felt is the torque increase, the cars willingness to go when u apply the throttle change. Yes it's subjective, some engines respond very well to fuel grades while some others feel benign, no feel.

It's also have to do with the gearing of the vechicle, the intake design, cam profile,configuration, piston squish area etc etc. and what not. Complicated stuff....

In all hosesty, V-power was created to fill the void in the fuels sector where there is a small demand for a ' premium gasoline' for the use of ultra high performance vechicles. That's why it's not available throughout the whole country right now. The current demand does not justify each station to allocate one tank for v-power only.

V-power based gasoline is not stocked in large quantities so sometimes runouts do happen.If you can check the volume/tonnage of Regular and Super vs Vpower sold at the pumps, u will be surprised at the ratio. I can't recall, but there's not a big market for V-power. What is does however is give you an option..........at the pumps.

[infinityKL]

i had a hard time looking for Vpower in Ipoh... very few... infact i only spotted 2... sigh

[Schwepps]

Thanks wc. I know V-Power is mainly a marketing niche play, and that's why I had to prove it for myself that it was tangibly better in some way. :wink: The reason I choose V-Power is more to do with being oil conservation conscious than cost-saving through better FC. And the reason I choose Shell in general is for quality. At least I know who is refining it and transporting it to the pumps. I even choose my pumps with care and avoid old pump stations in low-lying/flood prone areas.

Since you supply refineries, maybe you can shed some light on the refining dynamics here. The Shell we get is from Shell PD and Bukom. Does Shell also off-take from Petronas Melaka 1 & 11 via the pipeline? I know that Esso is mainly in production activities here, so who refines for Esso, Mobil, Caltex, BHP, etc? How many refineries are there in Malaysia now? Give us a low-down on their relative quality standards (in an oblique way if necessary :)) As fuels are not all the same, neither are refineries I'm sure. :wink:

[B33mEr]

Excellent thread this is :top: .... bro schwepps looking back at you history of FC that you have recorded thus far... can you say the extra 0.45sen/l is worth the extra spendin due to the extra km's you have gain by using v-power???

[turbology]

I think you will find your 530i will respond to V-power better due to it's ECU's capabilities to adapt to fuel quality.

How ECU adapt to fuel quality ?
ECU can adjust your timing map according to you fuel by detect knock value recorded by knock sensor. Most ECU (or DME) recheck/re-read the data everytime you start the car.
Octane rating has nothing to do with fuel quality. As you said, Octane rating is merely a value for knock resistance.

Higher octance rating doesn't mean better fuel economy too.
E85 has as high as Octane Rating (R+M)/2 of 105, but you get 30% less mileage compare to regular gas.

[Schwepps]

Excellent thread this is :top: .... bro schwepps looking back at you history of FC that you have recorded thus far... can you say the extra 0.45sen/l is worth the extra spendin due to the extra km's you have gain by using v-power???

No, it isn't bro!:) But as I said, I don't look at it purely from the point of view of the extra kms. It's a consumer decision, just like choosing a 3-series instead of a Camry is not based on cost-benefit, but on other emotional factors:

The extra km gives me the feeling that I'm contributing to oil conservation (which may not actually be true) There's an element of kiasuness as it's definitely a premium grade that our refineries are not geared to produce. There's a bit of belief that the 'detergent' additives are better, so that also gives a 'feel good'. And because I can feel a power difference in the Myvi and 4WD, although I can't feel it in the E90, it must be there too! It's a combination of these feel goods, but what I know for sure is that it's not because of the branding connection to F1 and Ferrari, which is just marketing BS to me. :rolleyes:

[ess530i]

I dont' see how V-power being "the best" since Octane rating is the same.

For 0.45 more, I will just mix myself

paint remover?

[turbology]

paint remover?

Laugh out loud :D

[wc9922]

How ECU adapt to fuel quality ?

By checking the AFR target values for each rpm bin that is under closed loop control and adjusting the fuel trim constant for the effective fuel map area so it scales up or down the fuel trim, like a fudge factor. Open loop ecus cannot do this.The VE will be the same for the same (rpm,load) bin but the computed required fuel per injection cycle (ms) will be less. The injector pulse width (ms) will be smaller. Don't mistake this for duty cycle.

ECU can adjust your timing map according to you fuel by detect knock value recorded by knock sensor.

ECU will retard timing when knock sensor gives out knock signal. But under normal operations, it will try and advance the ignition up and reduce the fuel trim for the map cells that fall under close loop operation. The limit will be when knock is detected. Usually it backs off by a safe margin of 5 degrees or so. but depens on the tuner. A BMW will not be the same as a Subaru.

Secondly, the ECU will also back off the timing when the intake air temperature and/or coolant tempreature hits certain limit. This high temps indicate to the ECU the engine is running under severe operating conditions. One example, The M series engine ECU's will not allow the engine to rev above a certain rpm before the engine warms up to preserve the engine. The rev limiter is set by retarding the timing to very little advance so u cant rev past it. That's how rev limiters are set in ECU's, cut out the timing, too risky to cut out the fuel injectors.

So the ecu can adjust timing not just based on knock sensor only.

Most ECU (or DME) recheck/re-read the data everytime you start the car.
What specific data are you referring to?

[Octane rating has nothing to do with fuel quality. As you said, Octane rating is merely a value for knock resistance.
So you argree with me? Fuel quality encompass more means the mixture %'s , the energy value (heat energy released during combustion) of the mix is important too.

Higher octance rating doesn't mean better fuel economy too.
So you saying it's only a measure of the anti-knock characteristics? Partly true.

If I have acess to a fuel that has a higher knock trash hold, won't I as a tuner take advantage of this positive attributes and bump up the timing and reduce the fuelling VE values of the ignition/fuel map in the cruise load areas so the car produces great lean torque on light throttle positions and be able to run AFR's between 15 ~16.5 without fearing the exhaust valves getting burned or the piston melting. That's what every tuner is trying to get, great power and great economy which is a possible combination by tuning.

E85 has as high as Octane Rating (R+M)/2 of 105, but you get 30% less mileage compare to regular gas.
Is E85 refering to Ethanol ? Ifyou are referring to Ethanol, it's a biofuel, almost a pure component fuel compared to gasoline which is a mixture of up to 13-15 organic compounds. By the way, gasoline has a higher heating energy value than ethanol per mol.

So during combustion, you need more ethanol by mass to produce the same amount of energy or heat compared to gasoline. This is a fact. That is why the fuel economy sucks on ethanol grade fuel.

Thanks for refreshing my thermodynamics.

[wc9922]

Since you supply refineries, maybe you can shed some light on the refining dynamics here. The Shell we get is from Shell PD and Bukom. Does Shell also off-take from Petronas Melaka 1 & 11 via the pipeline? I know that Esso is mainly in production activities here, so who refines for Esso, Mobil, Caltex, BHP, etc? How many refineries are there in Malaysia now? Give us a low-down on their relative quality standards (in an oblique way if necessary :)) As fuels are not all the same, neither are refineries I'm sure. :wink:

Bro, I don't supply them, I have contributed for the design and construction of most of these.

PSR-1 is a sweet crude refinery mainly processing the local crude while PSR-2 is geared toward processing sour crude like Arabian or Iranian crude which has high sulfur content. The PSR does export the finish products overseas via the refinery marine jetty. Shell PD refinery is quite old compared to PSR but it has a upgrading in 1998 with a good LRCC unit. Esso PD refiney is very old school design and is not capable of upgrading without spending a lot of $$$. I don't know if they want to sell it. The rest get their fuel from singapore refineries. Conoco used to originate from PSR as they are/was? a share holder of PSR-2 with Petronas.

The gasoline and diesel in Klang valley is distributed from the KVDT near putrajaya. There are dedicated pipelines than pump the finished products from the PD and Melaka refineries. I am not sure if V-power is transported via this pipeline.

If you ask me about the differences of the various grades of the different companies, I cannot say here.

All I can say for the UL92 and UL97 base fuels, they are comparable interchangable for all the companies, only the additives will be different. I know the oil companies do take from one another temporarily if they have a short fall of fuel but this normally happends in more rural distribution centers like Sibu, Sandakan...etc.

Some companies the additive technology is better than the other maybe because they have a big budget for fuels development, racing or have a great R&D team so some are leaders and some are not.

[Schwepps]

Well, we can't argue with you as you're obviously a chemical engineer :) Thanks for the education you're giving us. And I know you can't say because the dynamics of the oil industry are pretty confidential ;) Correct me where I'm wrong as I'm only a layman:

PSR-1 (Melaka 1) is a wholly owned Petronas refinery, and the sweet crude you refer to is Tapis crude. PSR-2 is a Conoco, Statoil JV with Petronas and produces mainly petroleum coke from Middle Eastern sour crude for export.

There is rarely cradle to grave supply of petroleum, and the upstream and downstream activities of the oil industry in a particular country depend heavily on economics and politics. In Malaysia, Esso focuses on production, Shell on refining and retailing, the others on retailing only, and Petronas on all three. There are others in refining here such as Conoco, Elf and Qatar, but they're not in retailing (no licence)

Last Qs:
- What crude does Shell PD use?
- Do Klang valley Esso, Mobil, Caltex and BHP get their base fuel supply from KVDT, ie piped up from Shell PD and Petronas Melaka 1, or do they get it from other new refineries, or trucked from Singapore?

BTW, I believe V-Power is trucked from Singapore.

[wc9922]

I think it's already lari topic lah bro..... V-power only.......

[Schwepps]

Hahaha! Spoken like a true oil man... :D

For a consumer to make an informed decision, it's important to know the chain. Otherwise do we all go to bed thinking that petrols are not all created equal, or do we go to bed thinking that all of them sell KVDT fuel from Petronas and Shell, with a few squirts of their 'secret' additives?

I know you can't say. Thanks anyway for taking us part way there wc. ;)

[ess530i]

i've tried every fuel in Msia and BHP is the one which i felt the most significant difference (about 20%) from other fuel...even more significant than v-power...but the other way round! one of the shittiest fuel ever...it is on par with thailand's cheap 'gasohol' (petrol + ethanol)

[turbology]

How ECU adapt to fuel quality ?

By checking the AFR target values for each rpm bin that is under closed loop control and adjusting the fuel trim constant for the effective fuel map area so it scales up or down the fuel trim, like a fudge factor. Open loop ecus cannot do this.The VE will be the same for the same (rpm,load) bin but the computed required fuel per injection cycle (ms) will be less. The injector pulse width (ms) will be smaller. Don't mistake this for duty cycle.


Since you can't answer my question directly, and repeating what I already known and point out unrelevant fact, let's pin it down to more specific.

You said V-power is a "higher quality" fuel. Because of what?
(Don't give me VE, AFR, closed loop, duty cycle, injectors pulse excuse)

I agree that MON make a different in performance.
V-power can have higher MON, which make it better "performance fuel".
But, since we can't get any number for MON, we cannot call v-power a "better fuel"

My point is, if any gasoline octang rating is the same, performance wise, any gasoline is the relative the same.
But the the question is, should we pay for the $0.45 different in v-power, which merely the same ??
Some says, V-power give better FC.
Compare $2.45 to $2.00, is 22% more.
Does V-power give you a 22% better FC ?

If I want a better formance from gasoline, I will find something else higher in RON , rather than the "same-RON97-but-no-prove-is-better" v-power.

And Shell claimed "99% of v-power is the same you found in F1". Oh please... all fuel is 99% the same. That is why all of them is call G-a-s-o-l-i-n-e

Cheers :)

[wc9922]

Since you can't answer my question directly, and repeating what I already known and point out unrelevant fact, let's pin it down to more specific.

You said V-power is a "higher quality" fuel. Because of what?
(Don't give me VE, AFR, closed loop, duty cycle, injectors pulse excuse)

I agree that MON make a different in performance.
V-power can have higher MON, which make it better "performance fuel".
But, since we can't get any number for MON, we cannot call v-power a "better fuel"

My point is, if any gasoline octang rating is the same, performance wise, any gasoline is the relative the same.
But the the question is, should we pay for the $0.45 different in v-power, which merely the same ??
Some says, V-power give better FC.
Compare $2.45 to $2.00, is 22% more.
Does V-power give you a 22% better FC ?

If I want a better formance from gasoline, I will find something else higher in RON , rather than the "same-RON97-but-no-prove-is-better" v-power.

And Shell claimed "99% of v-power is the same you found in F1". Oh please... all fuel is 99% the same. That is why all of them is call G-a-s-o-l-i-n-e

Cheers :)

I sum it up, you are right. U know the most practical answers to everything.:top:

[turbology]

I sum it up, you are right. U know the most practical answers to everything.:top:

:eek:
This is not an answer :rolleyes:

I will still like to know how ECU adapt to different quality of fuel

[Schwepps]

i've tried every fuel in Msia and BHP is the one which i felt the most significant difference (about 20%) from other fuel...even more significant than v-power...but the other way round! one of the shittiest fuel ever...it is on par with thailand's cheap 'gasohol' (petrol + ethanol)

You mean Boustead Holdings Petroleum? :)

It's important to know what's behind the brand. BHP (Boustead), Caltex (Chevron), Mobil (Exxon Mobile), Projet (Conoco) etc, are all basically marketing companies here. Are they involved in production and refining here? No. So where do they get their stock from?

Take Caltex: they have less than 300 employees here, mostly involved in managing their dealerships, Starshops and lubricant distribution. They started the additive game in the early 90s with Techron. They used to get their fuel from Singapore through ports like Pasir Gudang and Kuantan, but now I wonder whether they get it from the new KVDT built by Petronas and Shell. Effectively they might all be selling Petronas petrol refined in Melaka from our very own Tapis Sweet crude now. Economics.

Esso and Mobil...do they still get their stock from Esso's nearly 50 year-old refinery in PD, or KVDT too?

Read between the lines of sifu wc's posts :)

[E46Fanatic]

Gee great thread. So in summary, all fuels have the same base here from our normal pump, just additives which are added by the different companies. V-Power is the odd ball as it comes from Singapore.

In the past there were many tankers who made detours in remote areas to get fuel out and replaced with other bits for easy margins/bucks. Is this still true? Also do you guys know if dealers themselves have been caught in mixing at their petrol stations? I.e. V Power is not fully v power but instead a mix of normal gas and v power?

[Schwepps]

Well we all know what our enforcement and maintenance standards are, and the blue murder that people can get away with. There was the tanker driver mixing in the jungle issue, there was also the groundwater seeping into rusty storage tanks issue.

That's why I choose Shell - I think the best chance of decent controls. And I choose newer stations - avoiding stations in low lying/flood prone areas. ;)

[MSport]

Gee! It's interesting how the thread is going. Is V-Power more expensive due to "import" from Singapore?

[Schwepps]

MSport my bro, the pricing of petrol is not affected by whether it's imported or locally refined. Think about how petrol price is controlled. In 1983, the Govt introduced the Automatic Pricing Mechanism. Components of the APM are fixed: product cost (regardless what your actual costs are), overheads, oil co margin, dealer margin. The floating element is the subsidy, or vice versa, duty. The grades are fixed at 92 and 97 Ron. The govt plans to introduce 95 Ron next year, and reduce the subsidy for 97 through the APM.

Meaning, it's all very tightly controlled. There is no leeway for oil companies to set pump prices as they wish. Therefore, for Shell to get an approved pump price for V-Power, they must show why the product cost is different, and we're not talking about additives here. You can't tell the Govt you're taking base UL97 and putting in a super-duper additive, so can you please sell it 45 sen dearer? Pricing of petrol is not flexible like that.

So for product cost in the APM for V-Power to be different, it must be a different hydrocarbon formulation from UL97. It's a different fuel from Shell Super. :wink:

[turbology]

So for product cost in the APM for V-Power to be different, it must be a different hydrocarbon formulation from UL97. It's a different fuel from Shell Super. :wink:

You said the product cost for V-power is different, so Shell can sell V-power at higher price ? All I said this is political BS, and someone are getting extra cash in their pocket.
Is V-power in Thailand, or Singapore more expensive ?

Hydrocarbon-Gasoline can't be just sooo "different". No matter how it is, is still gasoline, and must fall within a certain spec. All gasoline are a form of hydrocarbon. Extra like MTBE, Benzane, Toluene, and etc all must follow regulation.

If Shell can sell it at 0.45 higher price, why can't other company like Pentronas, or BP do it ?

Do you get more performance from V-power ? or just from "I feel it" ?
One of the most important aspect when it comes to gasoline performance is Octang Rating. I am not paying extra for gasoline that is the roughly the same.
You can try to feel good by using V-power but as a better consumer, I am not.
It might be a slight different from Shell Super. But is still gasoline, and is still RON97. :)

All I am trying to do is to inform every driver out there.
Is all up to you of what gasoline you want to choose, afterall is paying from you wallet, not mine ;)

Cheers

[turbology]

So, I decided to contact Shell regarding the MON. Asking them if the MON in V-power and Shell Super are different. Differences in MON between the 2 gasoline can have a huge impact on performance even the RON is the same. (Just like WC9922 said, which I agree). The answer from Shell is :

Yes, both are roughly the same. MON is 86-87 for both (Super & V-power)

Cheers :)

[Traveler]

Well for me, my "practical" approach to deciding between RON92/RON97/V-Power is simple:

1. In my area, there's only Shell and Petronas. Shell is easier to get to, and I get 2% rebate using my Citibank Shell credit card.

2. No RON92 available, so forget that (although I would be interested to try it out at some point, out of curiousity with regards to cost/KM)

3. Only decision left is between Shell Super (RON97) and V-Power (also RON97).

4. V-Power is more expensive, currently 22.5% more expensive (RM2.45 vs RM2.00).

5. So does V-Power give me 22.5% better fuel efficiency than Super? I seriously doubt there can be a 22.5% difference between two sets of RON97 fuel even with superior additives (I never noticed anything close to 20% difference when using AKI87 vs AKI94 fuel in the US). So on cost per KM basis, Super wins.

6. Next question, will V-Power give me additional performance over Super? Based on what people are saying... it appears likely to have some performance improvement. Although in my old E36, I never noticed any difference when I tried V-Power, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt. So on performance basis, V-Power wins.

7. No major surprises here so far. Thing is, am I satisfied with my E90's performance under Super or do I want additional performance? Frankly, I'm quite happy as it is since under normal daily driving conditions, I have more than enough power to take me to work and back at speeds I am comfortable with.

8. My solution: Use Super 99% of the time, and maybe V-Power 1% of the time (especially on Club drives, so I can "feel" good and pretend I notice the extra "power", when in reality the "power" is from pressing the accelerator harder and being in DS mode to keep up with all the other UDMs). :)

[B33mEr]

It's a matter of choice really ... and having said that when using V-Power i do feel my M54B30 perform and respond better with V-Power even my passenger too feel the difference... i can see why Shell is charging a premium over V-Power ... FYI i'm using BHP cos it gives a better value tho i switch to V-Power once in a while when i can afford to hehehe

[Schwepps]

It was late last night when I posted. Let me be a bit more precise now.

The component costs of the APM are fixed. The floating element is the product cost, which is based on a standard formula for each grade and is a function of global benchmark oil price. The balancing figure in this equation is the subsidy or duty. When the pump price was raised in August, the subidy dropped. Then when oil prices dropped, the subsidy turned negative and the govt was collecting duty. Hence the pump price reductions in the past few months. The govt has been practising a managed float all this while.
See http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/12622-malaysians-are-now-paying-petrol-tax-

The margins are fixed for oil companies at 19 sen/lit and for dealers at 12 sen/lit, regardless whether it's Regular, Super or V-Power. Neither the oil companies nor the dealers make a single sen more or less from the price hikes, drops, or selling higher grade petrol.
See http://nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Friday/National/2407843/Article/pppull_index_html

Only Shell can offer V-Power because only Shell has the process technology in its Bukom refinery to produce this blend. The others don't have access to it because they're buying base fuel from Petronas, especially in the Klang Valley. Even the other big player here, Exxon Mobil, has exited the refining sector, so even Esso is pumping at KVDT. The volumes for V-Power are too small for Petronas to invest in upgrading the refinery technology here. Besides which most countries are moving away from higher grades, and indeed we should be moving towards alternative fuels instead. Even for Shell, it's only a brand differentiation play, as V-Power is a very small proportion of their sales.

V-Power vs Super: As a user, I find that there is an FC and torque inprovement, but they're not big enough improvements to justify the present cost differential of 45 sen. But I still use it because of emotional factors. :D

[B33mEr]

i luv this thread lol ... should be thread of the year :top:

[turbology]

2. No RON92 available, so forget that (although I would be interested to try it out at some point, out of curiousity with regards to cost/KM)

No RON92 for your UDM. It run like shit :)
With only 10sen different, is better on RON97 side

All bimmers are designed to run RON95 or above.
Well, to be more techincal correct, all posted/published numbers ( HP, Torque, 0-100) are based on minimum RON95. Not incluidng M cars

Cheers

[MSport]

Decided to return to the manual....... allow me to quote from the E90 owner's handbook (pg 193):


"Since the engine has a knock control function, it can run on different grades of fuel.

Super Plus/premium plus fuel octane number 98 RON, Fill up with fuel of this grade so that the nominal perfomance values are achieved.

You can also run the engine on: Premium-grade unleaded fuel, octane number 95 RON.

The minimum permissible grade is Regular-grade unleaded fuel, octane number 91 RON"

Looks like RON92 is also a go. But it may not bring out the engine's performance like a higher octane fuel.

Cheers!

[Schwepps]

i luv this thread lol ... should be thread of the year :top:

Yes, I learnt a lot from it too. Sifu wc's comments really crystalized the bits and pieces that I knew about the petroleum business model.

We make our own decisions about what petrol to buy, but at least we can do it now with better understanding of what's what.

Cheers all! :driver:

[MSport]

Well said bro Schwepps.

Happy re-fueling!!

[Schwepps]

Breaking news:
Petrol price dropping another 10 sen at midnight tonight. Apparently the APM shows a negative subsidy at RM2.00 per lit. Let's hope V-Power drops in tandem. :D

[B33mEr]

Sweet!!!! :D

[racheltoh]

so what is the conclusion?
Shell V Power or Shell Super

[XXX]

....depending on your pocket. :)

[MSport]

Breaking news:
Petrol price dropping another 10 sen at midnight tonight. Apparently the APM shows a negative subsidy at RM2.00 per lit. Let's hope V-Power drops in tandem. :D

Ha! Ha! You wish..... :rolleyes:

[B33mEr]

so what is the conclusion?
Shell V Power or Shell Super

V-Power of course if one can afford it :top::love: if not Shell Super or any other RON 97 grade fuel is good enough :D

[infinityKL]

yeah yeah... Vpower.. 2.15 can ah??? hehehe

[chewkies]

yeah yeah... Vpower.. 2.15 can ah??? hehehe

Anyone know the latest VPower price?

[E46Fanatic]

Anyone know the latest VPower price?

Just filled up this morning. Rm2.35. Dropped by RM 0.10 as well.

I wonder if all dealers are honest about their vpower stock. This morning's batch wasn't as blue as what I remember. You can look at the glass adapter viewer on top of the refueling hose to see how blue the petrol is. I always do that when I pump v-power but notice some station's v-power is a deeper hue of blue and others look almost clear (slight blue tinge).

Hmm..

[t2ribena]

Just filled up this morning. Rm2.35. Dropped by RM 0.10 as well.

I wonder if all dealers are honest about their vpower stock. This morning's batch wasn't as blue as what I remember. You can look at the glass adapter viewer on top of the refueling hose to see how blue the petrol is. I always do that when I pump v-power but notice some station's v-power is a deeper hue of blue and others look almost clear (slight blue tinge).

Hmm..

e46F...next time i add more coloring for u ok...http://www.bmwclubmalaysia.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

more blue means more quality right...pekat ma...:top:

***cabuts***

[Traveler]

Hmmm ok-lah..at RM2.35/L I think I can go and try V-Power for a couple of tanks and see if I notice any FC/power difference. But must be disciplined and not be tempted to be heavy-footed to try out.. otherwise driving style will be different from normal and results can't be compared properly.

[infinityKL]

im quite a heavy footer but i could see the small diff in FC.. but if you can keep ur limit to 120kmh and not more than 3000rpm, big diff in FC...

[Schwepps]

I wonder if all dealers are honest about their vpower stock. This morning's batch wasn't as blue as what I remember. You can look at the glass adapter viewer on top of the refueling hose to see how blue the petrol is. I always do that when I pump v-power but notice some station's v-power is a deeper hue of blue and others look almost clear (slight blue tinge).


E46F, after reading your post I left the office and filled up with V-Power opposite Eastin Hotel before going to several places on work. Tried to see the colour at the clear viewer part of the hose as you mentioned, but the glass was brownish so I thought I was pumping Klang river water... :D

Reset my Journey Computer. Drove 196km: 50% highway, 20% B-roads and 30% KL/PJ/Shah Alam, including a screaming 160kmh down the Guthrie Corridor Expressway. At the end of it, my journey FC was 10.5 l/100km. Pretty darn good for a fun day of driving. Long live the E90 and long live V-Power - they really go hand in hand! :top:

[infinityKL]

E46F, after reading your post I left the office and filled up with V-Power opposite Eastin Hotel before going to several places on work. Tried to see the colour at the clear viewer part of the hose as you mentioned, but the glass was brownish so I thought I was pumping Klang river water... :D

Reset my Journey Computer. Drove 196km: 50% highway, 20% B-roads and 30% KL/PJ/Shah Alam, including a screaming 160kmh down the Guthrie Corridor Expressway. At the end of it, my journey FC was 10.5 l/100km. Pretty darn good for a fun day of driving. Long live the E90 and long live V-Power - they really go hand in hand! :top:

good job... enjoy driving.. btw, i just pumped Vpower this morning to wifeys Jazz, shit i cant see no color.. . :stupid:

[E46Fanatic]

good job... enjoy driving.. btw, i just pumped Vpower this morning to wifeys Jazz, shit i cant see no color.. . :stupid:

From my experience some stations are quite clear like the one opposite Eastin and the one heading up to the BU Ramp (opposite BHP). One of the true blue Vpower can be found at the Shell station along the Persiaran Surian highway near Ikano opposite Palm Spring Dsra apts.

See if you guys notice it too now as you fill up.

[flash]

Ha ha, hope you are not color blind...:rolleyes: I also tried V-Power a few days back, can't see the color... the damn glass was so filthy....:eek:.

Don't feel much power difference with my current Bios:wink:... going back to "normal" petrol the next round.


good job... enjoy driving.. btw, i just pumped Vpower this morning to wifeys Jazz, shit i cant see no color.. . :stupid:

[Schwepps]

I know a certain vodka that's blue. Also packs a powerful punch woh... :D

[infinityKL]

also heard Ron92 will be replaced wt Ron95 by mid 2009...

[turbology]

also heard Ron92 will be replaced wt Ron95 by mid 2009...

I heard RON92 replaced by RON95,
And RON97 bump to RON98. .... hope is true :)

[Juan Powerblow]

RON 98 would be nice if price is maintained.

[Schwepps]

Doubtful JPB. The intention is to move everyone to Ron 95, as it's supposedly good enough for normal use, and to continue to subsidize that. Ron 97/98 will be retained for the 'performance car' addicts, but the subsidy will be reduced or removed altogether. So it's 95 for the masses and 98 for the rich so to speak.

To me, 95 is the minimum and doesn't bring out the full potential of a modern engine. I hope Shell will be allowed to continue selling V-Power...

[IsaacVky]

RON98 is the best fuel to bring out your UDM's full potential!
Note that horsepower on the catalog only apply if you're using RON98 fuel.

Since we're subsidizing the Government now, I think the RON98 wouldn't be too much higher in retail price compare to the RON95.

[Schwepps]

You're right about Ron 98, IsaacVky! ;)

Pricing depends: 1. On the price of crude 2. On the govt's domestic policy. The APM price depends on the crude prices, but pump prices are entirely set by the govt based on policy, and they can set them so that 98 is taxed and 95 is subsidized. In this economy, will they set 98 at parity with APM (no duty, no subsidy) and subsidize 95? It's more likely that they'll tax 98 to subsidize 95.

[mnas]

yo all..maybe im off topic here..but just to let u know that I used to work at Petronas MTBE plant in kuantan and for sure petronas oil is adding MTBE as antiknock agent/octane enhancer. the last time i check, shell is also making use of MTBE..

[Schwepps]

yo mnas, you're not off topic! This thread is helping us laymen to understand the petrols available to us. Since you're an ex-oilman, would it be right to say that the base petrol is the same for 92, 95 and 97 Ron, and the only difference is the MTBE and other additives added at the point of distribution? And that the only different formulation is V-Power, hence the different pricing?

[wc9922]

MTBE was the choice octane booster or oxygenate for gasoline runs by refiners in the late 80's and 90's. Same with ETBE. Nowadays, refiners in the developed nations are not adding MTBE into the gasoline anymore as they found out about the health hazards. I think EPA has a ban on it.

Have a look at the Material Safety Datasheet (MSDS) for MTBE and u will find the health hazards it poses. I think we in this part of the world has not yet fully stopped this practice. MTBE has other industrial uses as a specialty chemical besides capable of being a gasoline oxygenates.

[Schwepps]

That's a high octane avatar, wc! Not a health hazard too? :D

[mnas]

yup, i can't agree any further that the base petrol is similar for all the designated RON. it's the amount of oxygenate/additives that makes up the RON...e.g. MTBE / TAME / ETBE or even ethanol.

i remember that even when producing MTBE, we nvr produced less than 99.0% purity (rest being benzene and others). there is no advantage for manufacturer to produce 99.9% purity as it increases processing cost...bare minimum is the way..unless consumer is willing to pay. there used to be RON 100 (Techron 100 by Caltex) in S'pore some years back, but it was discontinued quite shortly after that.

[wc9922]

yup, i can't agree any further that the base petrol is similar for all the designated RON. it's the amount of oxygenate/additives that makes up the RON...e.g. MTBE / TAME / ETBE or even ethanol.

i remember that even when producing MTBE, we nvr produced less than 99.0% purity (rest being benzene and others). there is no advantage for manufacturer to produce 99.9% purity as it increases processing cost...bare minimum is the way..unless consumer is willing to pay. there used to be RON 100 (Techron 100 by Caltex) in S'pore some years back, but it was discontinued quite shortly after that.

Good technical info.

[wc9922]

That's a high octane avatar, wc! Not a health hazard too? :D

How can u complain if you have something like that? Not like rokok, this cannot 'merbahayakan kesihatan':top:

[lozo]

something i would like to share about vpower

http://protonmania.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=586e166a705b15ae6a85f7fb864c38 17&topic=33127.0

[Schwepps]

Hahahaha! Oh puhh-lese! That guy needs to go back to school and attend basic chemistry class again. :stupid:

Ethanol-mix fuels are only viable in certain countries. Our arable land is way too precious to grow sugarcane or corn. As for Singapore where our V-Power stock is produced, is there ANY agricultural land at all? Perhaps that guy needs to attend basic geography class too. :rolleyes:

BTW, some facts about ethanol for general info. It has a poor energy balance (1 energy unit of fossil fuel to produce 1.3 energy units of ethanol), carbon dioxide and ozone are produced during the production process, and nitrous oxides are produced when it's burned. There are also macro issues against - using food-arable land to produce fuel and therefore raising the price of food worldwide is not socio-economically acceptable.

[B33mEr]

Ethanol too has a higher octane rating (RON 115 if i'm not mistaken) and i think the point he's trying to make is that by adding ethanol one could increase the octane rating by a notch or two and in this case V-Power by Shell... Plus ethanol can easily be sourced from neighbouring country's ....
Koenigsegg CCXR is a 1050 bhp supercar that runs only on bio-ethanol :D

[Schwepps]

i don't know where you got that point in his post. The only point he made is that he thinks he's extracted ethanol from V-Power by shaking it with mineral water! :D Yes, Thailand and China are piloting ethanol-mix fuels, but to source ethanol from neighbouring countries would probably kick the energy balance below parity.

[B33mEr]

Hehehe ... let me rephrase what i just said ... his point is that Shell added ethanol in V-Power to notch up the RON factor in the fuel :D Thus by adding water to the mix and shake the content rigorously you can see the separation of of water, petroleum and ethanol ... but i also don't know whether his test are valid or not :stupid: but i do see his point cos ethanol does have a higher RON ratings and it juts might be possible that Shell added ethanol to achieve higher RON ratings :D

[Schwepps]

B33mEr, the answers are no on all counts. His backyard test is not valid, our V-Power does not have a higher RON rating than Super, and it is not an ethanol-mix fuel.

[wc9922]

B33mEr, the answers are no on all counts. His backyard test is not valid, our V-Power does not have a higher RON rating than Super, and it is not an ethanol-mix fuel.

Wah, sudah expert.............

[astroboy]

...probably added with some "ego".. :p

[Schwepps]

Heyy!!! I'm just a big fan of V-Power and I believe mis-information needs to be corrected, astro. BTW, the sifu with the rearview avatar taught me all I know about this great fuel. ;)

[glock_8]

so how bout in singapore? does they have the ron100 v power?

[infinityKL]

they only had techron ron 100 sometime ago if im not mistaken... now no more.

Vpower rocks... now cheap sumore... but for some reason it doesnt work well on alfa's...

[astroboy]

I see there are different feedback from different V-Power users. Some say good, some say no different, some say more economical to run, some say "..just try it and u'll love it".

I tested it on my 1.3 mini MPV which is running 10.0:1 compression and don't find anything to shout about.. have not on the 4-pot E90 though.. but skeptical about it..

If there's any good about this V-Power, I think it has nothing to do with RON rating because RON rating is just a measurement of knocking index, the higher the RON, the more stable the fuel, costlier fuel. The higher the compression, the higher RON we need to avoid knocking, which is premature combustion... and that's all RON is about.

So if a vehicle with recommended RON 92, using a RON 100 should not give additional benefit but waste of money.

Anyone done dyno test using the regular vs V-Power? Any HP or torque boost? or higher efficiency combustion? lower carbon emission?

[infinityKL]

astro, we dyno ourselves after some Vodka-Power at TSB la, long time no see ald... cheers

[astroboy]

Oi! Sexy-lan, after the Vodka, car also cannot find la, they all look alike.. :p

[B33mEr]

astro, we dyno ourselves after some Vodka-Power at TSB la, long time no see ald... cheers


Oi! Sexy-lan, after the Vodka, car also cannot find la, they all look alike.. :p

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[infinityKL]

hahaha.. i remember that one a'boy...

[Schwepps]

If you want an ethanol-mix V-Power, drink half the bottle of vodka, pour the other half into your tank and...VOILA! I think astro and sach have found the solution! :D

[E46Fanatic]

I see there are different feedback from different V-Power users. Some say good, some say no different, some say more economical to run, some say "..just try it and u'll love it".



The true problem lies in the fact that a lot of dealers/stations do not give you pure v-power and is either watered down or not V-power at all. I've been filling up V-power for a while now and there is a difference in performance when I pump where v-power is almost clear in color and when v-power is nice and blue. Its unfortunate that there is hardly any checks and balances on what each station does with when it comes to the premium fuel. Many many folks are getting ripped off paying for v-power when they don't get 100% of it.

If only Shell does more spot checks and fine dealers. I am sure they don't want this to be widely known as its bad for their image. Do you own surveys each time you visit the Shell station and see how many stations stock true blue v-power.

[astroboy]

So.. go for the blue-V and avoid the clear-V heh.. :p

[glock_8]

my fuel tank is not transparent...how to gauge the color then?

[astroboy]

... and how to water down the blue-V to clear-V leh... if add the Shell Super, which is yellow, blue+yellow, u get GREEN leh!! :eek: .. and water cannot mix with petrol oso... if campur kerosene, then can smell ma.. hmnn.... very advance.. :p

[Schwepps]

So which pump station do you reckon has true blue V-Power, E46F? I can never see the colour in the hose window.

[wc9922]

Use a new white tissue paper and let it soak up just a little bit of the fuel at the nozzle after u finish fuelling before you put it pack at the hose rack. U should be able to see some color on the tissue. It should be a bit dark blue.

Personally I have not known of 'watered down V-power sales'. Rain water in the tanks yes. Adultered fuel I have not. FYI, it's not up to the petrol station owners to request how much or when they want to top up the tanks. The station tank gauging and sales numbers are linked by SAP to Shell and Shell decides how much to send to the station and when. Not up to station owner to decide. Station owner only accepts delivery. Normally they send around 2,500 to 3,000 liters per shipment. This depends on the road tanker compartment configuration.

[E46Fanatic]

Thanks for the good info WC :top:. However, there are many cases of clear/almost clear v-power being sold around Klang valley today. There have been times where I go to a station to fill up, peer on the glass viewer on top of the hose to notice v-power is clear in color (same as Shell super) and just drive off to find another station. Maybe next time I'll snap pics of the differences and post them here heh.

WC do you know sources in Shell who can give us assurance that v-power stock is real v-power at the stations and that there is no way to beat the system Shell has by unscrupulous dealers?

[E46Fanatic]

So which pump station do you reckon has true blue V-Power, E46F? I can never see the colour in the hose window.

Some stations, there is a glass viewer at the bottom of the petrol pump handle (e.g. Shell station opposite BHP going towards the BU ramp from DJ. Easiest to snap pics of the color of fuel which I'll do next time I fill up). Check it out. You can view the color of the fuel clearly there. Some stations, the glass viewer on top is very dirty and dusty (for v power only) and its seemingly clean and clear for Shell super on top of the hose.

[wc9922]

E46F,

If I recall correctly, the blue of V-power is a color tracer put into the fuel to make it identifiable from the other grades. Same goes why shell had red and yellow for the other 2 grades. It's basically a dye, so visually they don't mix it up when doing load and unload.

However, I do get what you mean as a consumer when you see the varying depth of the tracer color,it it does make you think is it the real deal or adultured fuel when u pump. Maybe should ask the tech staff.

What u say could be true, if and only if the tracer comes pre-mixed with the V-power additives and added to the fuel at the loading station. Then the color with give an indication of the concentration of the additive injection rates.

I suspect the additive injection rates are sometimes of target during operations or the tracer concentration is not consistant for each additive drum .Maybe for shell as long as it's identifiable as blue it's good enough. Cause for them it don't add value to their product if the tracer color shade is consistant all the time. No blue at all then is problem.

If however there are 2 seperate injection points : 1 for additive and 1 for tracer at loading stations then the above would not be true as the tracer concentration will be independent of the additive dosing rates.

[Schwepps]

Thanks for the info on the tracers sifu wc. ;)

The problem in the petrol distribution chain is unscrupulous drivers and dealers - there were reported cases a few years back. My opinion is that we have a better chance with Shell, because they use remote metering, SAP management systems and GPS tracking to combat adulteration. Having dealt with Shell before, I know how anal they can be about controls. Am I right, wc?

I tend to use the bigger, higher volume and newer stations, and avoid low-lying ones where the storage tanks would be below the water table most of the time.

[astroboy]

So the blue is a dye, then can anyone provide info on what is the difference between blue Shell and the yellow Shell, apart from the color and price? and how to benefit from the "premium" fuel? Some say less than 2 years car no effect because engine is clean but old car will immediately benefit from it through the cleansing process and engine become more efficient..

I know all these are trade secret and many on my friends that's from the industry refuse to comment further.

Shell is claiming to get more mileage from their fuel and on the other hand, they are sponsoring public announcement to educate drivers not to speed unnecessarily to gain FC... see the link there..

[wc9922]

So the blue is a dye, then can anyone provide info on what is the difference between blue Shell and the yellow Shell, apart from the color and price? and how to benefit from the "premium" fuel? Some say less than 2 years car no effect because engine is clean but old car will immediately benefit from it through the cleansing process and engine become more efficient..

I know all these are trade secret and many on my friends that's from the industry refuse to comment further.

Shell is claiming to get more mileage from their fuel and on the other hand, they are sponsoring public announcement to educate drivers not to speed unnecessarily to gain FC... see the link there..

Read the earlier post......all there,

[E46Fanatic]

Good info as always WC! I think next time when I spot clear looking v-power i'll compare it with the super as I just realize from your post that super is actually yellowish instead of clear. See if its the same hue or not. I.e does the clear looking v-power have yellow tracer/dye in it. If it does then its clear that its not v-power.

So now the hunt for clear looking v-power begins to see if there is yellow tracer in them. You guys who pump as well if you spot them, post em here and lets compare. See if we find something conclusive on this :).

[B33mEr]

Guys ... here's something interesting about the V-Power mix with ethanol ... seems it's a fact and have been done in western countries lol i guess the guy at protonmania.com maybe on to something ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-Power

After further reading it seems in Australia ... Shell is mixing V-Power with ethanol that is called Shell V-Power racing (RON100) but have since then withdraw from the market ... hmmmm

[Schwepps]

I've been following the ethanol arguments for some time. The reason Autralia's ethanol-mix V-Power Racing has been withdrawn by Shell "due to a changing market" is a study by the Australian government's Ethanol Working Group showed that ethanol has some adverse effects.

Anyone who drives a car, rides a motorbike, or pilots a boat will want to know exactly what ethanol does to their vehicle's internals - particularly after recent figures suggest that 30 per cent of Australian vehicles will be adversely affected by the recommended 10% ethanol mix.

In the US it's only allowed in states with lower air pollution standards. In Brazil, it's everywhere.

[Schwepps]

In yesterday's day-trip to Kuantan and back, I achieved the following trip stats:

Fuel consumption: 9.8 l/100km
Av cruising speed: +140 kmh
Av speed: 95.6 kmh

V-Power and the N52B25 engine rock! :party:

[infinityKL]

http://www.fuelsaving.info/fuels.htm

[adliz]

good thread.. am pumping v-power and still monitoring.. :)

[Schwepps]

Thanks for the informative article sachs! Good one, except it doesn't pick up on the point that V-Power is a different hydrocarbon composition from normal unleaded petrol, giving it a higher energy content. This is in fact more important than the RON factor, as our V-Power has the same RON as our Super unleaded.

It also incomplete in describing ethanol mix pros and cons. Correct that it gives out less greenhouse gases on burning, but doesn't mention that it gives out more in the making. Proponents argue that the extra greenhouse gases produced are absorbed by the corn/cane/sorghum fields producing the feedstock, but opponents argue that those fields would be there anyway, and it's a choice of using their produce for food or fuel. It also doesn't mention that burning ethanol produces more polluting nitrous oxides than petrol.

[E46Fanatic]

Spot the difference..

Vpower

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd297/funjin/vpower.jpg



Super
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd297/funjin/super.jpg

There was a very slight blue tinge in the vpower and since its just a dye, I hope its 100% vpower instead of a mix of vpower and super. Anyway, I would assume that the dye concentrations will be more consistent in their fuels. Oh well, regardless I'm still fueling up with vpower.

[astroboy]

I only notice the sky is blue.. :p

[MSport]

Aiyoh! My eyes can't even see the color in the hose window!

[Schwepps]

You vain guys need to start wearing glasses laa - that's definitely Klang river brown! :D

Actually, worry no more E46F. The way the APM (Automatic Pricing Mechanism) works is that the dealer gets the same 12 sen per litre margin for Regular, Super or V-Power. There's no advantage for them to mix V-Power with Super. Worry more about contamination (accidental or willful) with water and other fluids.

BTW, the petrol companies get a 5 sen margin on all products, and at the current crude price, the govt gets a duty of 55-60 sen. That can, of course, easily turn into a subsidy if the price goes up.

So why does Shell bother marketing V-Power here if the margins are the same? Cos differentiation builds brand loyalty. I was leaving Borneo Rainforest Sunway two nights ago, and the pump sign came up in the display. Spotted some stations, but not a Shell. So switched on the navigation and searched for Shell stations. Drove 6km to Subang Jaya, past Summit, just to get to a Shell! Then came back the same way to hit the LDP. Brand loyalty.

[infinityKL]

Damn, i was stuck wen balik kampung, No V-power.... nearest was ipoh town which is 30km's away.. even there i only spotted 2 stations wt VP... i took the risk driving wt warning lights on... hehe

[Schwepps]

Once coming back on the NS Highway, pump sign came up. No Shell for many km. Drove into a Petronas and filled RM20. Like kapcai only - cashier also look at me one kine. Drove on to the next R&R Shell and filled to the brim - ahhhhhhhh! Then happy lo... :p

[Schwepps]

HAAH! The Shell gods have been hearing me shower allocades on V-Power! I've just had a call telling me I've won RM300 in the Shell/BonusLink draw. Can have a few more beers at Borneo RF now! Hahahahahahaha! :dancing:

[wc9922]

HAAH! The Shell gods have been hearing me shower allocades on V-Power! I've just had a call telling me I've won RM300 in the Shell/BonusLink draw. Can have a few more beers at Borneo RF now! Hahahahahahaha! :dancing:

I've never met you at Borneo RF before have I?

[MSport]

Congrats! V-Power ada 3x more chances to win.

[Schwepps]

I've never met you at Borneo RF before have I?

Nah, I'm in the Damansara area. First time I set foot in there was 3 nights ago lah. Liked the ambience and Hydra's music. Cool place. :beer:

Y, your hangout ka? Maybe that Shell in SJ was where I hit the draw, so BRF is lucky for me? :54: :D

[infinityKL]

HAAH! The Shell gods have been hearing me shower allocades on V-Power! I've just had a call telling me I've won RM300 in the Shell/BonusLink draw. Can have a few more beers at Borneo RF now! Hahahahahahaha! :dancing:


nice one... damn i've been trying my luck wt bonuslink/shell and wifey wt mesra/petronas... no luck :rolleyes:!! 2 lucky malay ladies walked away wt a 325 & civic hybrid, petronas.. :top:

[E46Fanatic]

HAAH! The Shell gods have been hearing me shower allocades on V-Power! I've just had a call telling me I've won RM300 in the Shell/BonusLink draw. Can have a few more beers at Borneo RF now! Hahahahahahaha! :dancing:

Cool!! Sharing is caring bro... :wink: Our after work booze session is long overdue hehe.

[Schwepps]

True that! We'll catch up soon bro. ;)

[MSport]

Excerpt from: http://star-motoring.com/blog/permalink.asp?id=374

Quite good and fine, though the question must beg that with the introduction of RON95 into the market, would it not be better to allow fuel companies to replace RON97 across the board with a higher octane number fuel such as the likes of Shell's V-Power Racing, which is effectively a RON99 fuel, if only to better segment the fuel rating index in the country?

So, is V-Power Racing is RON99 then? :wink:

[glock_8]

the UK version of Vpower is using RON 99. Here in M'sia still using RON 97 with addictive.

[Traveler]

I decided to try out V-Power (normally I used the normal Shell RON97 - think it's Shell Premium). Based on about 100km of driving so far, I noticed better fuel consumption of around 8km/L at 36-37km/h average speed (normally at this speed on normal RON97 I get around 7.7km/L). Distance is way too short to form any conclusions yet.. more driving needs to be done.

Power-wise, I seem to notice a minor improvement but I am unsure if this is a real improvement or a psychological one. Again, I think more driving needs to be done.

More reports to come :)

[racheltoh]

as much as possible, i will now use Vpower cos i can save fuel le..(tested and monitored for past 1 mth)

[mizhan]

Power-wise, I seem to notice a minor improvement but I am unsure if this is a real improvement or a psychological one. Again, I think more driving needs to be done.

More reports to come :)

you won't notice a very substantial power increase moving up from premium to vpower. however, after a few tanks on vpower, go back down to premium. you'll definitely feel like your engine is out of tune. this is because when you move up, most of the time our expectation exceeds the power increase and therefore don't allow much to register on the butt-dyno. moving down, we will instantly miss even a few ponies..

[Traveler]

A roadtrip brought me these numbers (measured over a distance of 310-320km each):

1. Average speed 118km/h (crusing 120-130km/h, peak 145km/h) -> 12.3km/L
2. Average speed 108km/h (crusing 100-140km/h, peak 160km/h) -> 12.1km/L

At first glance it may appear higher speed -> better FC but I suspect the higher FC of #2 was due to a lot more acceleration/deceleration due to heavy traffic and rain. Unfortunately I didn't record down FC data from my previous trip over the same stretch using normal Shell RON97. Anyone have comparable numbers from using normal RON97?

Power-wise, did not notice any significant difference from my previous long-distance roadtrips on Shell RON97 and Petronas, but then I did minimal hard acceleration.

[astroboy]

Bear in mind that combustion is a lot more efficient at night/rain when the air is cool. So unless you can confirm external temperature and moisture is constant, such comparison cannot proof anything.

[Schwepps]

Hey, Traveller, I think you won't find much difference in power in your 325 Sports. I don't feel much difference either - that engine would be torquey even with RON95. Try it in your smaller capacity car if you have one. I found the difference in torque in my smaller Japs and heavier 4WDs to be very evident when I alternated between Super and V-Power in successive full tanks.

FC is definitely better with V-Power. The long-term average FC (from 1st km) of my 325 Sports has now increased from a low of 11.8l/100, but at 12.0l/100, it's still a fantastic FC. And that's with revving it to 5000 RPM at least once a day.

[lozo]

i do felt significant power increase with shell v power. not a bmw btw. but after the ecu was retuned (mt lt8s)

[MSport]

Bros, today I noticed that V-Power price dropped to RM2.12 per liter. Anyone know since when did Shell drop the price?

[Schwepps]

Today I reckon. On Monday when I filled up, it was still RM2.15.

[MSport]

Any savings is good, right? Even 3 sens per liter. :top:

[jc@]

i only pump v-power to my 325 also. notice the drop since last week(if im not wrongly remembered)

think cause by the economy ppl scare to spend more i guess. 3cents drop is nothing. say 60liter*0.03 its only rm1.80 and thats only 1 liter ron97. but when it comes to a fuel hike......................... im speechless

by the way, any of you affected by the economy? for me i think the economy is just the same, and for my job, its even better at this period. :rolleyes:

*dont read the newspaper, then the economy is good as ever, only inflation is unstopable

[E46Fanatic]

by the way, any of you affected by the economy? for me i think the economy is just the same, and for my job, its even better at this period. :rolleyes:


I think everyone is affected one way or another. I was at the bank yesterday and FD rates are 2.5% for 1 year and 2% monthly (*^%%!

[Schwepps]

jc, you base the state of the economy only on your job as it looks at the moment? You don't notice that everything - exports, imports, air travel, car sales, consumer spending, stock markets - is down not just by a few percentage points, but 20, 30, 40%? That bellwether companies like Microsoft and Toyota are retrenching? That 16 out of 19 of the largest US banks are technically insolvent? That Singapore has realistically declared a -9% shrinkage for this year? Etc, etc.

Sorry jc, but you just don't know what this means going forward the next few years.

[astroboy]

After reading a posting about the economy hitting Germany's oldest profession, then I read about a member's new toy, RM497k 335i turbo, then I read about an E90's RM11k upgrade to BMW Performance parts.. I guess some beds are still filled with beautiful roses after all.. :wink:

I even heard warehousing business is flourishing now not because end products can't move and need to stock up, but investor stocking up non-perishable raw material to take advantage of the cheap prices now.. hmmn.... maybe I should dig a lobang and keep crude oil... :p

This very out of topic but who cares.. :p why? because MALAYSIA BOLEH!!

Malaysia takes pole position in regional car sales
By Goh Thean Eu
Published: 2009/03/28

MALAYSIA sold the most number of cars in January, for the first time in 10 years beating other markets in Southeast Asia.

The global economic slowdown has had a bigger impact on other countries in the region and most car markets are hurt.

As of January this year, Thailand and Indonesia car sales fell by 30 per cent and 23 per cent to 32,085 units and 31,567 units respectively. In contrast, Malaysian car sales fell by 17 per cent to 37,801 units.

Singapore, Brunei and Vietnam markets fell by 30 per cent, 7 per cent and 68 per cent respectively, while car sales in the Philippines were stagnant.

"As far as I can remember, Malaysia has been in number two or number three position for a very long time ... more than 10 years," said Malaysian Automotive Association (MAA) president Datuk Aishah Ahmad when contacted.

However, Aishah said it is too early to predict if Malaysia can maintain its momentum to become the region's best performer by year-end.

"It is very difficult to say, it depends on the economic scenario of each country," she added.

The association held its annual general meeting in Petaling Jaya yesterday.

During the media briefing, MAA appealed to the government to reconsider expanding the car scrapping policy to include locally-assembled vehicles. Currently, a discount of RM5,000 is given to car owners who trade-in their more than 10-year-old cars for the purchase of new Proton or Perodua cars.

"We are long-term investors in the country. We have been involved in the car industry longer than Proton and Perodua. At the same time, we also provide a lot of employment," she said.

So far, MAA has written a letter to Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak. The letter was also copied to the Ministry of Finance (MOF) as well as the Ministry of International Trade and Industry (Miti).

"I think Miti has been quite positive over this. It is MOF that has to relook and reconsider our appeal," she said.

Source: http://www.btimes.com.my/Current_News/BTIMES/articles/maa27/Article/index_html

[Schwepps]

Head in the sand... 1. We've always been the largest auto market in SEA. 2. Feb sales were 30% down year-on-year. 3. National car companies hurting badly. 4. New higher interest rates for non-national cars just announced. The signs are obvious.

[astroboy]

Higher interest rate academically is a fiscal policy tool used by the govt to dampen spending, cool down over heated economy from run away inflation.. however, for our case, its used to divert demand to purchase national cars.. now that sucks! ^%$#@!

I was told as at last December, we registered a shortage of Accountants but by Jan2009, the figure suddenly become surplus... because Accountants are repatriated from US and UK, returning to M'sia by the hundreds!.. :eek:

"Head in the sand".. of course, how else do u think I managed to get an E90 320i, others who bought 325i the same time as me also fully paid lio and I still owe the bank RM200k.. *&^%$#@! :p

[Schwepps]

I was told as at last December, we registered a shortage of Accountants but by Jan2009, the figure suddenly become surplus... because Accountants are repatriated from US and UK, returning to M'sia by the hundreds!.. :eek:


And from Singapore. Migrant workers wordwide are the first to be retrenched. 9% contraction projected there bro! But here only 1% projected. :rolleyes:

[astroboy]

.. but I ask 100 people, only 1 got VSS wor, she got a job after less than a month.. so any of your friends got retrenched? 1 out of 10?

Whatever Malaysia is going thru, is I think its true as reported.. not that we lansi or what but the fact is, we have not gone a lot better since 1997, so we suffer less now.. compare to those who recover a lot from 1997. That's my opinion. :p

[E46Fanatic]

I think in general we are better off than Singapore or US, or Australia but things have been better in the past. Due to less corporates spending esp. MNC, or manufacturing sectors here in Malaysia, and the prolonged public sector sit and wait spending attitude, its made the market more competitive with margins coming down. However, we are seeing some interesting dynamics, where jobs are shifting out from the US and re-locating in India, Malaysia, China etc in view of the cost cutting measures. Bad news is still US consumer market is not buying as much as before and it has impacted the manufacturing/electronics sector quite hard with mass layoffs here in Malaysia (NEC, WD, etc).

As with all things, there are always opportunities... Stocks are reasonably low maybe not rock bottom but might be worth buying and keeping for a sunnier day. At 2% or 2.5% FD rates, best to do this. One day you'll be kicking yourself on why you didn't buy when no one was buying as always the case... :rolleyes: Oil and Gas, Palm Oil, (commodity prices are bound to rise again from its all time low) Financial stocks are bound to see a sunnier day over the next year or so, compared to the measly 2.5% return in a year or so.. quite a good option now.

[flash]

Yeah, that would be a good idea if you have the spare cash... but in my case, I have had to refinance my house for a lower interest rate and all my spare funds are being put in it to reduce my interest. Well, of course one might argue that instead of putting everything into the housing loan, some of the funds can be diverted for investments for better returns... now what gives a higher return than my interest rate???? hmmm, as I am a bloody non-risk taker, that is tough call.:rolleyes:



As with all things, there are always opportunities... Stocks are reasonably low maybe not rock bottom but might be worth buying and keeping for a sunnier day. At 2% or 2.5% FD rates, best to do this. One day you'll be kicking yourself on why you didn't buy when no one was buying as always the case... :rolleyes: Oil and Gas, Palm Oil, (commodity prices are bound to rise again from its all time low) Financial stocks are bound to see a sunnier day over the next year or so, compared to the measly 2.5% return in a year or so.. quite a good option now.

[jc@]

jc, you base the state of the economy only on your job as it looks at the moment? You don't notice that everything - exports, imports, air travel, car sales, consumer spending, stock markets - is down not just by a few percentage points, but 20, 30, 40%? That bellwether companies like Microsoft and Toyota are retrenching? That 16 out of 19 of the largest US banks are technically insolvent? That Singapore has realistically declared a -9% shrinkage for this year? Etc, etc.

Sorry jc, but you just don't know what this means going forward the next few years.

:rolleyes: chill
what im trying to do is to ask everyone to think positive. even economy is bad now, we still have to live like usual am i right?

come on, look at the bright side:)

since economy is really that bad, enjoy it by buying some stocks ( only if you know how) and you can actually gain some benefits.

what im really sad is, my friends, family member and etc, they sell thier funds, share etc at this moment.

no point i talk so much here. just cheers and think more than you say:wink:

[jc@]

see, fd is 2% is nothing to you unless you have a lot inside.

come on ppl, look at the bright side. blr is now negative. take this opportunity to refinance your mortgage and you earn more then 3.75%pa.

bad economy has its influences but it also gives opportunity for you to earn more. just whether you know where is it and how to grab it.

[David Yong]

see, fd is 2% is nothing to you unless you have a lot inside.

come on ppl, look at the bright side. blr is now negative. take this opportunity to refinance your mortgage and you earn more then 3.75%pa.

bad economy has its influences but it also gives opportunity for you to earn more. just whether you know where is it and how to grab it.

Sound right but pls elaborate more. Where are the opportunities ? Some example pls :wink:

[jc@]

Sound right but pls elaborate more. Where are the opportunities ? Some example pls :wink:

how much you're paying for my words? haha, joking:wink:

see, price of land, houses are all drop, share price drop. get what i mean? but i just sell of some of my shares, its a little "not so safe" already since it grow so much for a week.

when it comes to share market, always remember, when everyone back up, its time to go for it. and when everyone go for it, its time to run for you life

[astroboy]

Yes, buy low sell high, that sounds easy.. :wink: Thanks for the tips.. :D

[David Yong]

Yeah... just like another statement I have read before: "WE MUST BE FEARFUL WHEN EVERYONE STARTS TO BE GREEDY AND WE MUST BE GREEDY WHEN EVERYONE STARTS TO BE FEARFUL".

[astroboy]

Yes Mr. Buffet.. :wink:

[Spaceman]

i missed the AIG & Citicorp when it was at 0.30cts & 1.00...damn! Otherwise, i'll be riding a V8 7 speeder DCT now...

[Schwepps]

Think beyond your own jobs, stock portfolios and real estate holdings. There are millions of people losing their livelihoods worldwide. The world order will change in the next few years.

The Daimler workers' union is demanding that Mercedes pull out of F1 as part of the company's cost cutting measures. BMW and Renault workers are watching developments. With only 5 engine suppliers left in F1, a sport we motorheads love is on the brink.

[Schwepps]

Getting back on subject, the pump-price of petrol is only determined by government policy to the extent of the quantum of subsidy it wants to absorb (to be precise, tax foregone) Pump-price is, in the main, determined by the price of benchmark crude, which is the variable element in the Automated Pricing Mechnism, APM. Oil companies and pump dealers have no say in determining the pump-price, and this applies to V-Power too.

[jc@]

:wink: i can't change ppl mind. i will say this one last time, dont be negative. at this moment, no one will help us unless we help ourselves.

your view isn't wrong at all. this is not a right wrong issue, jsut different ppl think differently.

have a good day and nice meeting you:wink:

[buzzlie]

Back to the petrol issue ... has anyone tried the fuel treatment that can be easily found on the shelves at the shopping complex? We just need to pour the whole bottle in the fuel tank. Is it good?

[Schwepps]

IMO, not advisable. You don't know how they will react with the additives already present in your petrol, nor their effect on various parts of your fuel line and engine. Eg, too much detergent additive will mess up your seals. As for 'octane boosters', how would you know they actually boost your octane? Better spend the money on V-Power, dude! ;)

[buzzlie]

Shwepps,

Good suggestion. Maybe once a while its good to pour full tank of V-Power ... to clean my fuel system and at the same time enjoy the extra Vroooom. Thanks.

[XXX]

vpower now RM2.05 per litre...more reason to use it now..

[David Yong]

IMO, not advisable. You don't know how they will react with the additives already present in your petrol, nor their effect on various parts of your fuel line and engine. Eg, too much detergent additive will mess up your seals. As for 'octane boosters', how would you know they actually boost your octane? Better spend the money on V-Power, dude! ;)

100% agreeable :top:

[MSport]

V-Power @ RM2.05 now.....

Wonder when V-Power will be like 10 sen more than the normal unleaded, just like those days....

[Silver320]

The sales of V-Power should be very low as compare to normal fuel, therefore, I have a concern that the stock at the station might have been stored for long time and not as fresh as the fast moving RON 97 fuel. If really so, V-Power might have loss some power and end up equal to the RON 97, but at premium price...

[MSport]

The sales of V-Power should be very low as compare to normal fuel, therefore, I have a concern that the stock at the station might have been stored for long time and not as fresh as the fast moving RON 97 fuel. If really so, V-Power might have loss some power and end up equal to the RON 97, but at premium price...

Hence, it's important to go to stations where their stock is fresh.

[Schwepps]

Nice to see that filling the tank with V-Power is costing less and less. RM110 for my 54 litres yesterday. Mid-2008 it was creeping up towards RM200! :eek:

[MSport]

Nice to see that filling the tank with V-Power is costing less and less. RM110 for my 54 litres yesterday. Mid-2008 it was creeping up towards RM200! :eek:

Agree! Agree! Wonder if it'll drop again cos it dropped 2 times in April 2009.:love:

[racheltoh]

any shell station in USJ or SA that stocks FRESH Vpower?

[Schwepps]

Firstly, to cut the guesswork, the shelf-life of petrol is approximately 1 year. Here's a BP document on it: http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/australia/corporate_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/f/Fuel_news_BP_ultimate.pdf

Petrol stored too long is at risk of evaporation (loss of some power) and oxidation (formation of gums) But another 2 problems that can occur in pump stations are: water contamination through leaky tanks/pipe joints in low water-table areas, and rust/dirt which can introduce bacteria, which causes further deterioration.

Just find a petrol station which always looks busy, and the stocks should be fresh. Also look for newer stations (newer tanks and piping) on relatively high ground, avoid flood prone areas. I once saw people driving into a station in Shah Alam, which still had a thick coating of mud after flood waters had receded, to pump petrol. Crazy - don't they realise that the tank filler covers, among other things, were submerged for several hours?

Don't worry, Shell will only stock V-Power in higher-end urban centres where they know the product will move. That's why you won't find it in rural stations.

Oh, one more thing, it's better to keep your petrol tank relatively full most of the time to lessen evaporation and condensation space. I normally fill when it hits 1/2 tank. When your tank is near empty, you'll hear a hiss when you open the filler cap - the more empty the tank, the louder the hiss.

[astroboy]

I beg to differ.. :p More petrol in the tank means heavier load to the car, thus less favorable power-to-weight ratio, FC worsen, burdening the suspension and accelerate tyre and brake/rotor wear... versus vaporisation and louder hiss when open filler cap.

[Schwepps]

Agree that it's a bit of a trade-off astro. But evaporation is more than just a loud hiss, you do lose some power too, as it's the most volatile components that evaporate. And it doesn't just stay in the tank to hiss out when you open the cap, there is also a pressure compensating valve to escape through. It's a question of which you prefer I suppose. I prefer a tank between 1/2 and 1, which is also factored in the 50:50 weight distribution design by BMW. :wink:

Here's another piece which has made the rounds in the web. Interesting, and all makes sense. http://shaktibanna.blogspot.com/2008/06/savepetroltips.html

[astroboy]

Haha... I thought you are maintaining 3/4 to 1 because I call 1/2 as half full not half empty.

For me, I seriously don't think making a trip to the kiosk worth while with half full tank because the time, the risk you might get rob there for the "frequent" trips, so higher risk and time cost. I would only start looking for kiosk when the needle falls below 1/2 and I normally fill before it goes below 1/4.

U like my father, every time tank falls below half, he start to panic and worry air sucked inside the fuel system and require to release air, or else car will not run smooth.. :D anyway, its just personal preference.. :wink:

[Schwepps]

Heyyy! My reasons are not like your father's :p In truth, I fill every Sunday morning for all the household cars. Sometimes it's at 1/2, but most times below that. The last few weeks it's been 54 litres each time for the E90, so that's at 1/4 mark. Who wants to be that perfect anyway? :)

[racheltoh]

Schwepps...yes all the time... i hear the HISS sound...its like a snake is going to jump out from the filler while opening the cap.. :( sadly i don hv the habit of filling petrol when 1/2 or even at 54km more to go...its always below 5km or until ----- sigh.. can i join ur sunday routine n my included to yours???

[Spaceman]

I remembered there was this TV ad in S'pore that 'always keep a full tank of fuel would prevent fuel tank from rusting...', i wonder if this is true?

[ebby37]

i am using V power but i really dont know whether it makes a difference in the total mileage i get out of a full tank.... I tend to fill up only when it is dangerously close to empty.... like 20km or less left.. is this bad ??

[Schwepps]

ebby37, compare your stats to mine and then decide. 2008 325i Sports, only V-Power used, 11.9 l/100km @ 42.6 kmh av speed recorded from 1st km.

The more empty space in your tank, the more evaporation of the most volatile constituents takes place, to escape through the vent and filler. You will read that in many websites. I don't know if Spaceman's S'pore ad is true - I wouldn't tend to believe it, but who knows.

[Schwepps]

Sigh.. can i join ur sunday routine n my included to yours???

We'd both have to get divorced first, dear! :wink: Sunday morning is when I do all the manly chores while the others sleep-in (all female household) Tend to the cars, buy dim sum breakfast, send the dry cleaning, etc. Best time to do it when there's no crowd.

BUT, Sunday afternoon onwards is dad's time. Don't kacau! Pop a bottle of red and veg out with an action DVD, F1, siesta, etc. Yay! :top:

[IsaacVky]

Nice to see that filling the tank with V-Power is costing less and less. RM110 for my 54 litres yesterday. Mid-2008 it was creeping up towards RM200! :eek:
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m232/IsaacVky/Image328.jpg

:love::love:

[E46Fanatic]

sadly i don hv the habit of filling petrol when 1/2 or even at 54km more to go...its always below 5km or until ----- sigh.. can i join ur sunday routine n my included to yours???

Haha just like my wife.. I'm like Schwepps and generally try to fill up ~50-80 more kms to go, and do a lot of the filling on behalf of the wifey. That way i get to choose choice stations with Vpower instead of resorting to fill ups at less ideal stations hehe.

Generally, filling up when there is hardly any fuel left brings about high chances of stuff going wrong in the car e.g. fuel pump, air in the fuel system etc. Plus the stress of running of of fuel, while you are running late for a meeting is not good for health heh.

[astroboy]

I remembered there was this TV ad in S'pore that 'always keep a full tank of fuel would prevent fuel tank from rusting...', i wonder if this is true?

Haha! Rust?? Ours excluded because our tank will never rust, not bio degradable !!.. :eek: :p :D

[MSport]

Aiyoh! Just discovered V-Power is now RM2.15 instead of RM2.05. :eek:

When was the price revised upwards?

[XXX]

yup also just noticed ...its back to regular for me...infact we should all do that ...to let Shell know that we were comfortable at 2.05 otherwise they can keep their Vpower...Im sure they will be able to see the trend that at 2.15 suddenly no vpower sales.....POWER TO THE CONSUMER.

[Juan Powerblow]

Shucks. At 2.05, it was quite justifiable to go for it with the added enjoyment but at 2.15, I can understand why some would think twice.

I also noticed that V-Power from different stations tend to differ. The one from Shell in Sri Hartamas sucks whilst the one from Jalan Damansara (opposite Eastin Hotel) is much better.

[Schwepps]

As I've explained before, the price of petrol is based purely on 2 factors: Benchmark price of crude + Govt subsidy or duty. The margin for oil companies and pump dealers is fixed and is the same regardless whether the pump price is RM2.05, 2.15 or 3.00. The increase has nothing to do with Shell, and doesn't benefit them or the pump dealer.

Waw! You can tell the difference, JPB? I'm running my 1st tank of Premium after using only VPower from my E90's 1st km, and I can't even tell the diff between Premium and Vpower! :p

[flash]

Guess JPowerBlower has a more sensitive butt.:top: I can just about discern a difference between Premium and Vpower i.e. slightly smoother engine with Premium (ok, go figure). However, I could not discern the difference between similiar petrol from different outlets.


Waw! You can tell the difference, JPB? I'm running my 1st tank of Premium after using only VPower from my E90's 1st km, and I can't even tell the diff between Premium and Vpower! :p

[MSport]

I thought I'd continue with V-Power when the RON97 goes to RM2.00. Now, gotta think again since V-Power is RM0.35 more than RON97 today.

Ah, but then you get 3 contest form for every RM30 filled for V-Power.......

[JCKL]

I thought I'd continue with V-Power when the RON97 goes to RM2.00. Now, gotta think again since V-Power is RM0.35 more than RON97 today.

Ah, but then you get 3 contest form for every RM30 filled for V-Power.......

Has anyone here have any luck in the contest? I've been submitting forms upon forms......but no luck, cheh!

[racheltoh]

overall oil prices going up...
we should be happy right...which also means economy picking up..
actually 2.05/2.15 few dollar different in total... wont hurt u beer kakis la..

bmFive... wishing u all the winning luck.. u can take my receipt if want too..

[JCKL]

overall oil prices going up...
we should be happy right...which also means economy picking up..
actually 2.05/2.15 few dollar different in total... wont hurt u beer kakis la..

bmFive... wishing u all the winning luck.. u can take my receipt if want too..


Thanks, if your receipts had the lady luck I'll sure take. :)I actually find the contest irritating.......but the kiasuness in me make me submit the forms.:stupid: I wish Shell could take all the price money & give us cheaper petrol!:63:

[Schwepps]

I won RM300 in the last round, so nearly 3 free full tanks. :dancing:

You sure you don't want your forms rachel? :)

[infinityKL]

damn, how come i nevr get any contest wan? all my cars drink V power, and from the same station.. that shell cashier gonna die tomolo morning!! also be carefull if using Bonuslink.. these smart cashiers hv their own cards on standby by the till, if you dont see, ur points go to them!! imagine those cust wt no bonuslink...huh!

[Schwepps]

I wish Shell could take all the price money & give us cheaper petrol!:63:

Shell and the other petrol retailers cannot flex the price of petrol. Our petrol pricing is determined by the Automated Pricing Mechanism (APM) mandated by the govt. Only the govt has the choice to subsidise or tax petrol, and in the case of VPower, it's a neutral policy. Ie, Premium and Regular will remain at the set price - toggling between subsidy and tax - while VPower will move up and down depending on crude prices.

Just like retailers of rice, sugar and other controlled items, the only legal way for retailers to offer 'discounts' is to offer prizes in lucky draws. But lucky draws are illegal without a gaming licence, so it must be a 'contest'. It's a 'contest' if there is a question answered (no matter how stupid the question) or a slogan written (no matter how stupid the slogan)

So...it's worth putting entries in because it's just a lucky draw, and you do get paid if one of your entries is drawn. I'm the proof it's legit. :wink:

[Juan Powerblow]

Waw! You can tell the difference, JPB? I'm running my 1st tank of Premium after using only VPower from my E90's 1st km, and I can't even tell the diff between Premium and Vpower! :p

I felt the diff after having used Premium all the time till I got a free top-up of V-Power. Ever since, I never reverted to Premium. Perhaps it has to do with the cleaning properties of V-Power i.e. it might take a while for the effects of your last tankful of V-Power to fade off. I recall a forumer from the oil and gas sector sharing his knowledge that it is always best to switch between different "brands" of fuel after each fill-up to take advantage of their various proprietary additives and benefits in one engine. Dunno if this makes sense. Funny thing is, my family actually gets free petrol from BHP for our 7 cars cos my dad has a history with the Boustead Group. But I only fill up BHP on my SMARTforFOUR, not my beemer. I need all the advantage I can get when I kena tiong by E46F and I think V-Power gives me that, hahahahaha!

[Schwepps]

Wah...free fuel also dowan! :eek:

It does make sense that it takes a while for the car to adapt to the different fuel, just as it takes a while for the ECM to adapt when the knock sensor detects a different RON fuel. But by the same token, it would take a while for the car to adapt between Sri Hartamas and Eastin Hotel VPower. :rolleyes:

I think you just have a fluid imagination la, just like you imagine you kena tiong by E46F all the time! Hahahaha! (kidding) Solution is obvious: Fit perf exhaust, do HiOP remap, use free BHP premium. Then E46F will be toast even if he double-boils his VPower. :D

[food_lover]

damn, how come i nevr get any contest wan? all my cars drink V power, and from the same station.. that shell cashier gonna die tomolo morning!! also be carefull if using Bonuslink.. these smart cashiers hv their own cards on standby by the till, if you dont see, ur points go to them!! imagine those cust wt no bonuslink...huh!

always ask for receipt.. Then you double check with "bonuslink swipe **** **** ****"

[Schwepps]

BTW guys, I just found out today that you're entitled to the forms even if you fill with Super. But it's 1 form per RM30 of Super versus 3 forms per RM30 of V-Power. So if the attendants don't give you the forms, they're just being lazy - ask for them. Note that you have to attach a receipt, so if you're using a credit card, get a 2nd receipt by slotting in your card again.

[infinityKL]

3forms, done! tq

[racheltoh]

1 form for every RM30.
3 forms for every RM30 if u use VPower
If ur full tank is Rm120...then u have 12 chances of winning?!

[astroboy]

I never have such luck.. if I have such luck, I would be in Genting enjoying my cigar in their VIP lounge lio.. :( even the "medium" at the temple also confirm the same.. was told my every single sen can only be earn through blood and sweat.. :(

Wish u all good luck!

[XXX]

1 form for every RM30.
3 forms for every RM30 if u use VPower
If ur full tank is Rm120...then u have 12 chances of winning?!

The thing here is even if you have 12 entries it is clipped together with the receipt so basically if it is base on lucky draw your chance also is still 1 eventhough you put in 12???...korek or not...

[MSport]

XXX, You're right.

On another note, did you see how the locations of some of the shell stations were in the winners listing. So, we urbanites have poorer chances. I wonder how they pull the winners from the entire lot of Shell stations nationwide.

[XXX]

Thats why I never bothered already , I prefer the Petronas wan just swipe and automatically ur entered for the contest...

[Schwepps]

Well, I just saw the list of the RM30,000 winners at my regular Shell station and there have been 3 already as the draw is 3 weeks old. Which means 9 RM3,000 winners and 900 RM300 winners. Nothing is more fun than free money! :)

[racheltoh]

Schwepps u didnt see my name right??? hahahahaha
TGIF ya..

[astroboy]

Well, I just saw the list of the RM30,000 winners at my regular Shell station and there have been 3 already as the draw is 3 weeks old. Which means 9 RM3,000 winners and 900 RM300 winners. Nothing is more fun than free money! :)

Congrats!? :eek:

[flash]

Hi schwepps, where is your regular shell station located????:rolleyes::rolleyes:


Well, I just saw the list of the RM30,000 winners at my regular Shell station and there have been 3 already as the draw is 3 weeks old. Which means 9 RM3,000 winners and 900 RM300 winners. Nothing is more fun than free money! :)

[Schwepps]

It's the one in DHeights opposite the Manulife building. But where doesn't matter, I think the list is displayed near the collection box in every station. If you win, they'll call you based on the phone no you put in the form anyway. My point was that in 3 weeks, Shell has disbursed RM387,000 back to consumers already, and that's no small sum. It runs to 31st Aug BTW.

TGIF rachel! :p

[MSport]

You can view the winners here......

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=my-en&FC2=/my-en/html/iwgen/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/my-en/tailored/shell_for_motorists/promotions/wincashweekly_promo.html

[E46Fanatic]

Enjoy the vpower now. Govt is implementing the new "National Fuel Subsidy" program from 2010 onwards. Petrol stations nation wide will have MyKad readers to check on your eligibility for these subsidies and the price of petrol as we know it in Malaysia will no longer be the same as what all Malaysian enjoy today.

Any oil fellas here who know more about this initiative/plan, do share share... :)

[infinityKL]

no luck yet... sigh

[astroboy]

I think that's what the garmement want to implement but the oil producers have all another story to tell... always the case.

So if the oil producer cannot fulfill, its not the garmement's fault, the oil producers' are pushed to face the Rakyat.. :(

[E46Fanatic]

Deleted Post..

[terencehilary]

Halo bro,

I ride on bhp the best fuel and more mileage... and brings out the beast in my 525i...

[enkil]

Is it ok to rate rotate vpower with regular fuel every time refill?

[Schwepps]

Halo bro,

I ride on bhp the best fuel and more mileage... and brings out the beast in my 525i...

BHP doesn't have refineries here. I believe it's basically Petronas ULG from Melaka SP3, which is good gasoline.

[Schwepps]

Is it ok to rate rotate vpower with regular fuel every time refill?

Regular? You mean Premium RON 97 right? No harm at all. You can even mix the two without worries. When RON 95 comes onstream in Sept, you may feel a slight difference in performance because VPower will stay at RON 97.

[Schwepps]

Enjoy the vpower now. Govt is implementing the new "National Fuel Subsidy" program from 2010 onwards. Petrol stations nation wide will have MyKad readers to check on your eligibility for these subsidies and the price of petrol as we know it in Malaysia will no longer be the same as what all Malaysian enjoy today. Implementation of this will be done through a commercial bank.

Any oil fellas here who know more about this initiative/plan, do share share... :)

I'm not an oil fella, more an armchair economist. :) I reckon it's still at proposal stage. There are gonna be lots of proposals in the next 18 months. Expected in 2010: oil prices going up again as the global economy starts improving, APs being discontinued, full AFTA compliance and further opening of our auto market, diesel at least at Euro 2 standard, the advent of hybrids.

A new fuel poilcy is long overdue. We are among the countries keeping fuel prices irresponsibly low. Time to be weaned off it, and be forced to be more energy efficient. We have about 50 years of oil money left to support our present way of life. Taxing fuel, with selective subsidies to keep certain segments of the population afloat, will be tied into offering energy-efficient cars such as hybrids. I believe hybrids will be the new play to offset the loss of APs and protectionism. Keep your eye on who gets what in the hybrid play. :wink:

[astroboy]

... We have about 50 years of oil money left to support our present way of life....

Don't trust everything u read.. we are living in a country where the newspaper are a brain-washing tools for the garmement..

I stop reading newspaper long time ago... so I'm totally conscience.. :22:

[E46Fanatic]

Deleted Post

[Schwepps]

Newspapers? Hallo...these facts won't be in the newspapers. O&G industry reports show that the ratio of new reserve discoveries vs extraction is already declining at a faster rate now. What do you think makes up for the shortfall in revenues (aka Budget deficit) since the '80s? Oil dollars won't last forever.

[Schwepps]

Unfortunately the award is done. Hence there is some buzz in the industry as this is a "mega project" which needs to be implemented. Details will trickle in over the next weeks/months for sure on this new "National Fuel Subsidy" initiative.

Yes, it has to be done. And IMO it's good that something is being done.

[astroboy]

...Oil dollars won't last forever.

Agree! but not 50 years.. that's a figure "they" want you to believe so y'all stop relying on Petronas..

I think I've said too much.. :p cabutz....

[Schwepps]

Actually the official line is longer than that bro. :) In fact it may still be discovery/extraction parity in some quarters. This lifespan estimate comes from independent O&G analysts.

[astroboy]

.... This lifespan estimate comes from independent O&G analysts.

Also its safer to report a shorter lifespan or else Obama will send in their troops.. :eek:

Damn... must refrain myself from sharing all this highly classified info anymore... if you find me absent from forum after this, you know what happen.. :(

Bye! Good night!

[etquah]

Yesterday pumped in 1/2 tank of Ron95 in my E90. Trying to feel whether any loss of power or it feels the same.

[E46Fanatic]

Deleted Post

[Schwepps]

Interesting E46F! I suppose the DB back-end and POS front-end are doable, but the trick will be the networking as you say. VSAT won't cut it, so how? Maybe only stations near a fibre network? It's possible: if you want your subsidised petrol, go to the following stations...

Any idea what types of cars/engine capacities will qualify? I'll bet national cars for one. Full AFTA compliance means disbanding the API system and imposing the same excise duty for all, but there are many ways to skin the cat. Also, I believe a hybrid play is in the works.

[shanthan60]

is it ok to use different bands of fuel in my E90323i,am using esso synergy F-1,which i think is ron97 but am planing to change to vpower,will this damage my engine?

[infinityKL]

go pump the V first thing in the morning...!! vroom vroom...

[Schwepps]

is it ok to use different bands of fuel in my E90323i,am using esso synergy F-1,which i think is ron97 but am planing to change to vpower,will this damage my engine?

No worries whatsoever. You can mix any brand and RON 95, 97 and V-Power with no ill-effects. It's likely that all the brands come from the same base stock anyway. Just don't fill Ron 92 (if you can find it) - it's below the recommended minimum for E90s.

[E46Fanatic]

Deleted Post

[astroboy]

haha, sounds like a jigsaw puzzle with many missing pieces to a weak mind like mine.. plenty of money to be grabbed by the smart ones.. :eek:

Must it be online? Or can it be something like the Touch'NGo architecture where u can use it to pay for your bus ticket, on the bus? No VSAT there.. :rolleyes:

[E46Fanatic]

Deleted Post

[Traveler]

No worries whatsoever. You can mix any brand and RON 95, 97 and V-Power with no ill-effects. It's likely that all the brands come from the same base stock anyway. Just don't fill Ron 92 (if you can find it) - it's below the recommended minimum for E90s.

My manual (325i) states the absolute minimum as RON91, while stating that our nominal performance figures are based on RON98 fuel.

[etquah]

Mixed half tank each type last week, can't feel any difference anyway.

[Schwepps]

My manual (325i) states the absolute minimum as RON91, while stating that our nominal performance figures are based on RON98 fuel.

I stand corrected. But 91-92 is too low anyway unless you're desperate. :)

[astroboy]

A friend tested the RON95 in his N52, comment was low rev range not much difference but beyond 4k rpm, the RON95 run out of breath compared to RON97 which shoot straight into the ECU interception zone.. :eek:

Sounds like timing retarded to me.. use can use la. car won't spoil.

[racheltoh]

Mixed half tank each type last week, can't feel any difference anyway.

because you are not racun yet by the gang..

btw, how do u mix half n half? or is it done at 2 different timing?